The amazon- unnatural histories!

[Amelanchier]

Did you just copy that from a book called one hundred and one useless facts?

 

Not my style.

 

I copied it from a paper called;

Gurr, T. R. 1981. Historical Trends in Violent Crime: A Critical Review of the Evidence. Crime and Justice: An Annual Review of Research 3:295–350

 

which is cited in

Pinker, S. 2011 The Better Angels Of Our Nature: The Decline Of Violence In History And Its Causes. Allen Lane.

[gibbon]

Were those the closest books to hand at the time?

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

Did no-one take you up on that offer? S'funny...

 

you can lead a horse to water.....

[David Goss]

No, I met proud, displaced, people trying to work out how they could maintain their culture in this ever changing world. You are right to point out my limited experiences of these cultures, and possibly the errors of my veiws. My opinions are made from the experiences I have had meeting these people, conversations I have had with them and other western people who have spent a long time living with and learning from these people. I have friends in Latin America and Africa who work closely with indigenous groups and have a deeper understanding of their cultures than most who may read this. Yes there were inter tribal battles in almost all cultures, look at the world today is it any different? Often stories and tales of violent murdering neighboring tribes were elaborated stories that helped to maintain social and political boundaries between the tribes, which helped to maintain a peaceful status quo. “Don’t cross the river cos they will murder your whole family and eat your brains”, so we don’t cross the river.

 

When Europeans “invaded” both the new and old worlds, boundaries between new countries did not represent these existing tribal boundaries. When people are displaced by the settlement of others from foreign lands than surely further inter-tribal disputes will arise as people fight for what habitat land remains. When 2 or more tribes with different cultures are expected to self govern and rule a country who’s boundaries were drawn up by white men, is it any wander that conflicts occur? This is exactly what is happening all over Africa. It is also worth noting that some indigenous groups do not live in their original homelands but have settled new areas because of western pressures. The Kuna Indians of Panama were originally from Colombia but moved to Panama to avoid war and disease (Conquistadors?). This was a forced move and I doubt it was peaceful.

 

Your description in the earlier post described short and possibly violent lives which these people led before Europeans settled their lands. Lets not forget that the British Empire saw almost every other culture as barbaric savages who must be saved from themselves and in the process destroyed the very cultures who held the key to sustainable living. What did the indigenous people gain from this? Was it medicines derived from plants they already used but in the process lost the knowledge of how to utilize these these plants locally? Religion which was at odds with local beliefs and a monetary system which ultimately serves to benefit the wealthiest folk. What did we gain – taxes, cheap disposable labour (they are just savages remember) and a shed load more resources to make us all feel richer.

 

I have had the pleasure to meet short lived, frog eating, witch doctor worshipping (or local plant expert and medical man as he might be referred locally), spear wielding savages. The one lasting impression that I take away with me is that without the economic trappings of the “developed world”, these people smile, wave, laugh, share, embrace life, community and family values far more than we are able to here. I question who are the real savages on this planet.

 

Fantastic post

Gibbon you have been blessed with an insight into this world that i am extremely jealous of. I wish it was me going to meet these people, as i have the upmost respect for all indigenous peoples around the world. I will just have to keep watching Ray Mears and the likes when they go visiting.

[Le Sanglier]

No one in their right mind would deny that there are terrible things happening to many many people at this moment in time (see Gibbons good examples). There are and I agree that we should strive to eradicate them (strive harder no doubt, than we are). There are also immoral disparities between the 'haves' and the 'have-nots' which we must work on reducing.

 

However, none of this means that things can't be better now than in the past. The reality that the average life has improved does not mean that we should feel less compassion for the starving millions, nor does it mean that we have to accept the dire ethical mechanics of our financial institutions. Just because our world isn't perfect doesn't mean we should bin it and start again from some romanticised pre-agricultural illusion. Thinking that life would be better for everyone if we closed our bank accounts, moved off grid, grew a few courgettes and ate squirrels is a cop out, it's a refusal to really engage with the more difficult question of how we improve the world for everyone.

 

Well said, you will struggle to win any discussion with the those who adhere to the "noble savage" stuff. Some people are only happy when racked with some cultural guilt or other.

[Amelanchier]

Were those the closest books to hand at the time?

 

You gonna go through my bins later?