Level 3 tech cert

[sloth]

Discuss away it is arb talk...

[Verena]

Well, ok then.

 

I basically did a sound survey (yay!), but messed up the rest (only failed by 2 marks, boo!)

 

Main issues with the survey:

 

Some of the age classes given were inaccurate.

errors on ‘Estimated remaining contribution’ and ‘Preliminary Management Recommendations’. For surveying trees it is important to have a good knowledge of tree genera and the age class range associated with these.

 

Can anyone help here? I used experience from work, which never seems to include a Davidia or Monkey Puzzle. Is guidance available somewhere?

 

I didn't have time to draw the crown spreads and subsequently failed to colour code the retention categories (A-D).

 

Some RPAs were inaccurate, and I still don't know how to do it properly. At work we rarely show RPAs as perfect circles, especially where trees grow closely together, which means we often draw them smaller than what we calculated. Our interpretation of the BS I suppose, which is wrong? Next time I might just stick to the circles unless there's a river/building/retaining wall/road?

 

Car Park did not appear to be to scale and did not allow room for young tree

development.

 

Q 2.a.ii: Reasons for siting the car park apparently were a mess, as a result of not having the time I'd normally have for a job like this (several hours).

 

Q.2.b. Eight recommendations for tree work. One mark for that. And I don't even know what that was.

 

Big question mark over their feedback for Q.2.c. ‘Identifying 30 activities and/or methods which could be undertaken during the

construction process that could be used to avoid damage to retained trees’.

They seem to suggest that "Replanting proposals" is one possible answer. During Construction? To avoid damage to retained trees? Other answers are fair:

- Erection and type of protective fencing;

- Soil levels;

- Appropriate site notices;

- Dealing with the car park construction;

- Replacement planting;

- Compliance with guidance and legislation etc.

 

but "Much of the information you supplied which appeared to relate to this section was not valid so you missed out on the majority of marks.". I remember that I wrote "No open fires", "No use of chemicals", "No heavy machinery"- not sure if I got marks for that, it's claerly mentioned in the BS.

 

Q 2 c will be the main query in my response to the remark report.

 

Q.2.d. "Marks were awarded for the answer you provided, however this was insufficient and

you gained less than half the available marks for this question

Particular points where possible marks could have been gained were:

- Details concerning the NJUG document;

- Zone dimensions;

- Dealing with roots in more detail;

- Protection of roots and back-filling etc."

 

That's it. So many fair comments, but some unclear. Must watch the time next time, spend less valuable time at the oral bit (where I think I did quite well).

 

I have now emailed British Standards to find out when BS 5837:2011 (2012?) is due for release. Will keep you posted.

 

Any comments, please fire away!

 

Verena

[ben lightfoot]

I know i went into it really under prepared and knew i would not do well but i even think someone with bs5837 experience would struggle with the points they want and the time given, i was most nervous about the oral in that section but felt it went well. I spent too long surveying the trees and probabaly should have knocked most on the head? i was prob to emotive about keeping trees and not looking at it from a longevity point of view. Having no experience within the area didnt help and i felt overwhelmed of trying to fit in a car park next to what i felt a lot of trees. Now feel free to tell me to man up and welcome to the real world

[Bundle 2]

Ben,

I too thought it made little sense to place a carpark within the space allocated....they must have required trees removing !

I was not happy that the carpark area was required to drain up hill either...!

They were trying to apply a test of BS5837 in a practical context that simply did not fly.... It is possible of course as many have passed. I suspect you may have experienced the same kind of "mental block" that loomed as I tried to work out how the question could be so abstract!

 

Verena...the 2c. It was allocated 30 marks....this is the first answer I made on the day. Because they were giving marks away.

 

The fact they supplied a survey template is fine. In other years/papers, they allocated marks for re-producing the right template !

Scaled drawings...jesus..I really think the ABC bod that wrote this paper is in cuckoo land !

Yes, it is permissable to alter RPA designated footprints under certain circumstances...look these up Verena I would suggest. For the purposes of an exam, I would keep it simple and plot circles, and overlap them as best you can without making a mess of the drawing ( given the size of paper you are required to produce it on ! )

 

Ben, I did not do a survey. I plotted nothing. I answered all the text questions only. If Id had time for a survey, Id have gathererd the 11 points I needed Im sure.

Someone posted earlier in this thread, not just their frustration but also highlighting that Unit5 requires serious time management if you are going to pass.

 

Verena, I think working BS5837 in your day to day has actually worked against your exam response. It is an exercise in exam technique in that you need to know "how to pass a Tech 3 BS5837 paper" as much as anything !

[Verena]

BS 5837 to be released end April 2012. So they say. Assuming that the October exam will be based on this, it should be the most important read the New Year will have to offer to me...

 

By the way, I had a couple of trees removed in my exam paper, and it was nothing the remark person has objected to. I think that sometimes trees simply have to go. I think all they want to see is that you can justify your decision. Which I made within 1 minute 15 seconds or less. Oh well...

 

Tim: "it is permissable to alter RPA designated footprints under certain circumstances...look these up Verena I would suggest"- is there anywhere else than the BS where this is dealt with? BS only says pre-existing structures like roads etc.

 

Verena

[Bundle 2]

Sorry, I was referring to the "exceptions" that are allowed in 5837...

[Verena]

This is all I'm aware of

 

4.6.3 The RPA for each tree should be plotted as a circle centred on the base of the tree,

unless pre-existing site conditions or other factors indicate that rooting has occurred

asymmetrically, in which case a differently shaped polygon of equivalent area should be

preserved. Modifications to the shape of the RPA should reflect a soundly based justification

of the likely root distribution and should not result in polygons plotted simply for convenience

in relation to proposed development. Any deviation in the RPA from the simple circle should

take full account of the following factors whilst still providing adequate protection for the root

system:

a) the morphology and disposition of the roots, when influenced by past or existing site

conditions (e.g. the presence of roads, structures and underground apparatus);

b) topography and drainage;

c) the soil type and structure;

d) the likely tolerance of the tree to root disturbance or damage, based on factors such as

species, age, condition and pruning regime.

 

It doesn't say anything about large trees growing closely together... Sorry if I'm a bit slow here...?

[Treecreeper1961]

Hi Verena, Tim and co.,

Happy News Year to you all.

 

I bet failing by 2% makes it even harder to swallow, unlucky:thumbdown:.

 

You did well to get that close, it was a nightmare, a days work I reckon.

 

The Davidia and Monkey Puzzle are not even on the learning list so it's quite inappropriate to specifically criticize you on knowledge about these species in my opinion.

Having said that though, from what I can remember they were both young specimens and I was pretty confident as such, and being in good condition, they would have 40 plus years of contribution left.

 

I am not sure what to say about your RPA comments. Showing projected RPA in light of barriers to root morphology seems quite complex to me, if it is going to be accurate.

I don't think there was any characteristic present to require showing the RPA as anything other than centered symmetrically around the tree stem, as a circle or square, as stated in the standard.

However, the notion that an RPA of one large tree can give protection to smaller trees within a group is one that may or may not be reliable in my opinion. What if the presence of roots from a larger, older tree causes the roots of a younger tree to grow into space beyond this all encompassing RPA?

Maybe this will be given consideration in the revised standard.

I did not colour code my RPA's, just showed them in pencil as circles. I did find my scale ruler useful for this and wished I had practiced it a lot more. At this point I abandoned the plan and the survey, desperately in search of marks.

 

The recommendation of tree work that I gave was largely centered on removing the large sycamore. I noted several bio mechanical faults and used them to justify this. I was worried about this call afterwards but it is about opinions and backing up those opinions with sound arb. assessments. You could have argued it was too good a specimen to remove but it did have some issues and limited remaining contribution. Removing it was a safety call but it also allowed retention of the younger trees and probably made long term sense. Made reference to BS3998.

One of my oral questions was on reasons for crown thinning and this threw me as the revised BS3998 recommends reduction as a superior remedy to thinning for most management objectives.

 

The question 2c was it, 30 marks for 30 measures to reduce damage during construction. I left it very late to tackle this but crammed as much down as I could remember, quoting as many specific controls and as much detail about as I could, including detailed spec. for the fencing. I didn't get thirty points down but perhaps by elaborating on some it was possible to gain more than one mark for each??

 

I reckon there is a lot of value in training specifically for BS5837 work and I intend to do the one day Treelife course this year if I can. It covers so many aspects.

Just out of interest, when doing BS5837 work do you cover all the sections for your clients, survey, AIMs, AIA, TPP, CEZ and all or are there some jobs that just require a survey and the RPA's? The reason I ask is that some people don't know what they wan't or need and some LA's accept the latter while others insist on the full monty. The problem I have is not having access to computer design programs or GPS technology at the moment.

How does everyone else cope with these issues? Measuring wheel, scale ruler, pen and paper? Would be interested to know if this is the case with anyone.

 

Sorry to get side tracked. What I have found is even in passing the Tech Cert there are just loads more questions. That is the great thing about it all though, never to be bored again!

I do believe I had a bit of luck somewhere and we all need that, but be certain, make your assessments and back them up with industry best practice guidance, they can't say your wrong then.

 

I am sure you two (Verena and Tim) will get it next time, don't be stopped from trying again by the flaws in the system, not even the Abc or AA are perfect, good luck. Remember the words of Ben from Treelife, 'it's a war and battle right to the end, every second and every mark counts' or something like that.

 

Ben

[Nick Harrison]

just catching the tail end of this thread so apologies if my input isn't relevant...i retook the 5837 last october so assume you guys are talking about the same exercise i would have done up in Arley?? putting a car park in an area with three large trees and various smaller ones dotted about? seem to remember one of the big trees was a sycamore, the other 2 were conifers?? i originally failed the 5837 the year before, the most valuable lesson i learnt from that was about time management...

 

i think those of us that have done the tech cert have a good enough brain capacity and knowledge/experience to know what to do in the real world, on this exercise you're seriously handicapped by the time restraint as well as the usual nerves you get under any exam situation.

 

i remember my course instructor telling me to read all the questions first and then think where to begin (sound advise), this time round i looked where the bulk of the marks were allocated and tried to get those bits done first where possible.

 

we all know that this work can be pretty subjective at times, i decided to go with my gut instinct and removed the younger trees to make way for the car park...my thinking was that the 3 big trees, despite the biomechanical issues mentioned earlier, needed to either all remain or all go, primarily because i felt removing just one or two of these trees would open the remaining one(s) up to new exposure which could compromise their stability. i'm not saying this was the best route but i obviously did something right as i managed to pass this time round?

 

as for the drainage question, i completely ignored this, could not understand how to create a drainage system going uphill?? wouldn't mind some enlightenment on that one if anyone knows?

 

we all usually have different opinions and approaches to tree work, often two opposing opinions can both be right. i think the main thing to keep in mind next time round is that you need to treat this module like a driving test, do what you've got to do to tick the boxes to pass the module. once you're out there doing the job you're not against the clock and you can usually discuss ideas and options through with developers/consultants which isn't a luxury afforded on exam day.

 

hope all the above has some use to those that missed out this time round, i know loads of blokes that messed up on this one, so i think it's clear it's not an indication of incompetence but just the usual exam problems, delivering the goods under a lot of pressure in not a necessarily realistic situation.

 

is a shame that abc can't organise getting a May retake established again, waiting a whole year seems a bit unfair to me! i know i felt completely out of synch, had to trawl all the books and folders out to refresh memory...good luck to those retaking next october, at least time you'll have some idea of what's coming!

[ben lightfoot]

Thanks for replies and advice, have to agree its rubbish waiting a whole year before a resit makes more pressure for this one to not mess up but at least its only one unit