Base decay in eucalyptus

[Fungus]

Went and had another look, should really have had a closer look last time around as there are parts that are a little beyond 2mm deep, in fact let's just say 2 digits deep of decay

Pulling up the soil though I couldn't make out any stringy structures. Pulling away a bush on the other side and there is a smaller area of identical decay.

 

In this phase of wood decay, the decomposition of once living tissue of the tree is almost always done by melanine covered mycelium of the necrotrophic parasitic Armillaria species, so after shedding the bark, there might be no (more) rhizomorphs present.

And keep in mind, that superficial decomposition of cambium and wood by Armillaria species can "hide" massive inside decay and hollowing of the tree trunk without outside signs or body language symptoms, as can be seen in the pictures of some of the beeches in my thread on beech and Honey Fungus, on which also the black melanine coverage of the mycelium is visible.

[treeseer]

In this phase of wood decay, the decomposition of once living tissue of the tree is almost always done by melanine covered mycelium of the necrotrophic parasitic Armillaria species, so after shedding the bark, there might be no (more) rhizomorphs present.

And keep in mind, that superficial decomposition of cambium and wood by Armillaria species can "hide" massive inside decay and hollowing of the tree trunk without outside signs or body language symptoms, as can be seen in the pictures of some of the beeches in my thread on beech and Honey Fungus, on which also the black melanine coverage of the mycelium is visible.

 

All that may be possible, but how does one tell that black stuff is not another, less virulent, organism?

 

Does "necrotrophic" Describe a pathogen whose first settling stage (at least) requires a source of nutrients made of necrotic tissues?

Don't almost all pathogens consume dead tissues at the start?

 

It may also be possible that the wood inside is undecayed, and that superficial decomposition is by another organism(s), and speculation about necrotrophic parasitic beasts doing massive damage is not borne out by the facts.

 

APC, does this orificer use a tomograph, mallet, drill, ouija board, "gut", or just a look at the target and a squirt of red paint?

 

Even if there is interior decay, subsequent growth on the exterior can compensate for it.

 

And even if there is significant (>2/3?) decay, reduction pruning can increase stability. Not to mention "fixing" soil that hama refers to.

 

Lots of possibilities. Further examination is warranted. Basil Kutz or Louie DeLopur are not yet needed. One opinion.

[Fungus]

1. All that may be possible, but how does one tell that black stuff is not another, less virulent, organism?

2. Does "necrotrophic" describe a pathogen whose first settling stage (at least) requires a source of nutrients made of necrotic tissues? Don't almost all pathogens consume dead tissues at the start?

3. It may also be possible that the wood inside is undecayed, and that superficial decomposition is by another organism(s), and speculation about necrotrophic parasitic beasts doing massive damage is not borne out by the facts.

 

1. By using a microscope capable of determining whether the hyphae behind the melanine layer belong to an Armillaria species or that the black layer is of another (fungal : mostly ascomycete) origin.

2. No, as opposed to biotrophic parasitic, meaning the parasite dies once the host is killed, necrotrophic or facultative parasitic means the mycelium of the fungus lives on once the host/tree is dead and keeps contributing to the decomposition of the substrate/wood. And yes, almost all pathogens consume dead tissue too and the mycelia of macrofungi do it for the greater part to provide themselves with the sugar polymere cellulose to form chitin (another cellulose based but modified sugar polymere) rich annual or perennial FB's with.

3. It goes without saying, that everything is possibe, so I stick to concentrating on the information or "facts" provided and data based analysing and pointing in certain directions without being able to diagnose in situ or in vitro myself, because I thought that's what this site is for.

[Arbor Logic]

1. By using a microscope capable of determining whether the hyphae behind the melanine layer belong to an Armillaria species or that the black layer is of another (fungal : mostly ascomycete) origin.

.

 

I am sorry I just had to say here that I don't feel that the microscope will tell you... lol.... By using a concrete mixer capable of making concrete you can make the concrete that I am wanting!!!! or more to the point just because you have a microscope does not mean that what can be observed will be observed...Or on an even finer point... if there is something that should be observed would it not be better to explain it?

Edited August 25, 2011 by Arbor Logic

[Fungus]

1. I am sorry I just had to say here that I don't feel that the microscope will tell you

2. or just because you have a microscope does not mean that what can be observed will be observed

3. if there is something that should be observed would it not be better to explain it?

 

1. Feel or know for a fact and from own practice within your Queensland based holistic, 100 % organic tree, plant and soil health care company ?

2. If you don't know what you're looking for, that's correct.

3. I tried to explain the use of chemical reagens and a microscope - instead of a magnifying glass, treeseer used before to search for hyphae inside rhizomorphs of Armillaria with - to identify and asess hyphae, spores and other characteristic structures of anamorphs or teleomorphs of certain species of macrofungi before to Cassian and Guy Meilleur, while he was visiting Australia, but his reply was, that instead of consulting a professional mycologist, "it would also be better to have world peace, and a chicken in every pot", and after I withdrew from the topic "We've excised Gerrit's constructive advice, and will follow it ", and then left Australia, so I've given up trying.

[treeseer]

Mr. ArborLogic, I told the poster we could stay on track, so please no more nonsense about microscopes talking.

 

3. I tried to explain the use of chemical reagens and a microscope instead of a magnifying glass, treeseer used

Yes all I used was a hand lens, that's all I had at the time.

instead of consulting a professional mycologist,.

Cassian has contacted every one within shouting distance and is receiving useful guidance, thanks.

 

1. By using a microscope capable of determining whether the hyphae behind the melanine layer belong to an Armillaria species or that the black layer is of another (fungal : mostly ascomycete) origin.

 

Yes an acomycete origin seems possible. I hope APC's tree officer will take this step, and others based on the tree and the site, before deciding.

 

2. No, as opposed to biotrophic parasitic, meaning the parasite dies once the host is killed, necrotrophic or facultative parasitic means the mycelium of the fungus lives on once the host/tree is dead and keeps contributing to the decomposition of the substrate/wood. And yes, almost all pathogens consume dead tissue too and the mycelia of macrofungi do it for the greater part to provide themselves with the sugar polymere cellulose to form chitin (another cellulose based but modified sugar polymere) rich annual or perennial FB's with.

 

Thanks, understood.

 

3. It goes without saying, that everything is possible, so I stick to concentrating on the information or "facts" provided and data based analysing and pointing in certain directions without being able to diagnose in situ or in vitro myself, because I thought that's what this site is for.

 

Absolutely, sticking to the facts is the way to go. Pointing in one direction or another may also be what the site is for. What I was not sure of was the basis for pointing so strongly and singularly in the one direction of severe decay, based on the information provided. I pointed to others possibilities, just for balance, and to offer options to consider even if that worst-case scenario turns out to be true.

 

No disagreements here, no dramas, mate! Let's see what the officer comes up with.

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

This is madness...

 

The tree- a Euc, 3ft at base, large wound (at present not a panic situation)

 

A volume (mass) reduction would be advisable yes, and then monitor annualy.

 

Anything more at this stage would be like sending money to Africa to feed the poor.

 

In other words all the experts would get the money and very little would be left for the really needed stuff.

 

IMO

[Arbor Logic]

I guess humour is lost in this forum unless you use multiple smiley faces;)

I was trying to say that I haven't met many microscopes capable of determining anything.....It is usually the user:p

[treeseer]

The tree- a Euc, 3ft at base, large wound (at present not a panic situation)

 

A volume (mass) reduction would be advisable yes, and then monitor annualy.

 

hama i agree with this in general, but without in some way quantifying strength loss, and the prognosis for spread, how does one specify the reduction? 10? 20? 30? Or use the dartboard at the pub?

 

i agree this is not worth a L1000 (where is the pound key?) consultation, but some probing at least should give an idea.

 

Also, would removing soil from the wounds really be like sending sandwiches to the sub-saharaan wastelands? This seems necessary for probing for decay, and also for therapeutic effect over time. Job 1 perhaps, as APC mentioned he started that.

[Fungus]

I guess humour is lost in this forum unless you use multiple smiley faces I was trying to say that I haven't met many microscopes capable of determining anything.....It is usually the user

 

As I said before, not being a native speaker, writer and reader in/of the English language, nor being familiar with Australian or British humour, I sometimes miss the point in statements, which can be interpretated in more then one way . Besides, Dutch have quite a different sense of humour, which you probably would not understand if you were confronted with it .

That being said, I have a serious question. Does the holistic approach of your plant, tree and soil health care company imply and integrate the dynamics of tree species specific ecosystems - parasitical, saprotrophic and endo- or ectomycorrhizal micro- and macrofungi included - and their tree species specific soil food webs and the life cycles of indigenous trees in its work on and management of (urban) trees and forests ?