Base decay in eucalyptus

[Fungus]

1. ... also to mycorrhizae in the periphery of the root system could also yield important information.

2. What sign is there of Armillaria?

3. "Crustose" refers to lichen, as used in the USA. The white growth does not resemble a decay fungus that I have seen, but I have never been to England. It appears more like eczema than a wood rotter, from this severely limited mycological view.

4. In searching for distantly recalled terms, I cast my net wide and found from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia : The Aphyllophorales is an obsolete order of fungi in the Basidiomycota. The order is entirely artificial, bringing together a miscellany of species now grouped among the clavarioid fungi, corticioid fungi, cyphelloid fungi, hydnoid fungi, and poroid fungi ... "A-phyllo-phora" means "not bearing gills", distinguishing the Aphyllophorales from the gilled agarics (mushrooms and toadstools).

 

Guy,

1. What type of mycorrhizae, ecto- or endo ? How will you determine the presence of either of them, and more specifically of the first type, if no FB's of symbiotic macrofungi are above ground ? How will you interpret the presence (or absence) of (tree species) specific ectomycorrhizal macrofungi, if they are fruiting above ground ? And how do you know, that this Eucalypt species is associated with endo- or ectomycorrhizal micro- or macrofungi ?

2. Maybe rhizomorphs or plaques, as Tony already implied ?

3. Indeed, "from this severely limited mycological view", so why "contribute" with all this utter nonsense to the subject at hand.

4. You could have saved yourself from a lot of work by simply confining to this post from the thread you started yourself.

Edited August 14, 2011 by Fungus

[treeseer]

1. What type of mycorrhizae, ecto- or endo ? How will you determine the presence of either of them, and more specifically of the first type, if no FB's of symbiotic macrofungi are above ground ?

 

I already recommended going below ground to gather evidence. Speaking of hearing aids...

 

"How will you interpret their presence (or absence) if they are fruiting above ground ? And how do you know, that this Eucalypt species is associated with endo- or ectomycorrhizal micro- or macrofungi ?"

 

If it seemed relevant, I would research it. If it seemed highly relevant, I would consult an expert. At this point, it does not seem relevant, but my mind is open to change. Is yours?

 

2. Maybe rhizomorphs or plaques, as Tony already implied ?

 

What *sign* is there? (It seems a powerful hearing aid is needed). Implications and maybes are not scientific evidence. Jumping to conclusions is not good diagnostic or scientific process.

 

3. Indeed, "from this severely limited mycological view", so why "contribute" with all this utter nonsense to the subject at hand.

 

Because the original poster said s/he imagined they'd cut it down due to target, and then examine the corpse. This is the most primitive form of tree risk management: "Defect" + Target = Removal. The "defect" is not assessed--it may well be negligible--so the diagnosis has barely begun.

What seems utterly nonsensical is the peremptory interposition of a constraining mycological focus on what is an arboricultural question.

 

4. You could have saved yourself from a lot of work by simply confining to this from the thread you started yourself.

 

You will contribute useful input when a closeup is furnished of the exczema/"crustose" material that has the original poster ready to wield the chainsaw. You could also hold off on the insults, sir. Try considering the subject at hand, arboriculture, from a more objective, scientific perspective. Confinement to the fungal perspective seems like a severe limitation.

[Fungus]

1. What type of mycorrhizae, ecto- or endo ? How will you determine the presence of either of them, and more specifically of the first type, if no FB's of symbiotic macrofungi are above ground ?

I already recommended going below ground to gather evidence. Speaking of hearing aids...

"How will you interpret their presence (or absence) if they are fruiting above ground ? And how do you know, that this Eucalypt species is associated with endo- or ectomycorrhizal micro- or macrofungi ?"

If it seemed relevant, I would research it. If it seemed highly relevant, I would consult an expert. At this point, it does not seem relevant, but my mind is open to change. Is yours?

2. Maybe rhizomorphs or plaques, as Tony already implied ?

What *sign* is there? (It seems a powerful hearing aid is needed). Implications and maybes are not scientific evidence. Jumping to conclusions is not good diagnostic or scientific process.

3. Indeed, "from this severely limited mycological view", so why "contribute" with all this utter nonsense to the subject at hand.

Because the original poster said s/he imagined they'd cut it down due to target, and then examine the corpse. This is the most primitive form of tree risk management: "Defect" + Target = Removal. The "defect" is not assessed--it may well be negligible--so the diagnosis has barely begun.

What seems utterly nonsensical is the peremptory interposition of a constraining mycological focus on what is an arboricultural question.

4. You could have saved yourself from a lot of work by simply confining to this from the thread you started yourself.

You will contribute useful input when a closeup is furnished of the exczema/"crustose" material that has the original poster ready to wield the chainsaw. You could also hold off on the insults, sir. Try considering the subject at hand, arboriculture, from a more objective, scientific perspective. Confinement to the fungal perspective seems like a severe limitation.

 

Guy,

With these highly selective and not to the points raised answers to my rightful questions and remarks, you're obviously not only in need of a powerful hearing aid, but also of magnifying glasses to read and interpret the text of my post. So to avoid further investment in pointless discussions from both sides, I will no longer react to any of your future posts.

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

Theres a lot of tension forming in this thread!

 

firstly, looking at the issues from a fungal perspective is vital, we have damage, and hence wood exposed and prone to decay agents.

 

The armillaria sign is as gerrit says the melanine plating or plaques, though maybe more likely Kretschmaria.

 

the crustose term is valid, maybe should have said resipinate, for your discerning tastes? and it is a fungi, mark my words. what would have helped was a well focused image with a small aperture offering good depth of field but we have what we have.

 

from the long term perspective yes this woundwood is strong, so strong in fact that a wound wood occlusion from a large euc was found in the Australian outback and was thought to be a boats frame, it had survived the fire that had burnt the rest of the tree away! so yes a tree can stand like this as long as it isnt colonised by an aggressive parasitic fungi such as Kretschmaria (plaques evident)

 

much of the issues facing trees are fungal related, a very vast majority (following major stress and or injury) so to not look at it from a fungal perspective in the FIRST instance is pretty naive.

[Fungus]

Theres a lot of tension forming in this thread!

 

Tony,

No worries, as I've decided to refrain from reacting to any future posts of Guy the TreeSeer.

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

Tony,

No worries, as I've decided to refrain from reacting to any future posts of Guy the TreeSeer.

 

I think some people just need to take a chill pill and relax, and find out peoples backgrounds before trying to get into arguments about science with you!

 

Dont be too hard on us ametuers Gerrit.

 

as for you mr Treeseer, man up arbsoldier and learn to take the heat:thumbup:

[treeseer]

Aye aye Cap'n Tony; all's cool over here. and that's small "t" and no Mr., keeping some fitting humility.

 

"firstly, looking at the issues from a fungal perspective is vital, we have damage, and hence wood exposed and prone to decay agents.

 

All true, but keeping the arb perspective as well is also vital, considering the assignment.

 

"The armillaria sign is ...the melanine plating or plaques, though maybe more likely Kretschmaria.

 

I do see black, which may be a layer of melanine covering an aggressive decay pathogen that will inexorably destabilize the tree. But that seems uncertain at this stage of diagnosis. A black layer may also have several other causes.

 

"the crustose term is valid, maybe should have said resipinate, for your discerning tastes? and it is a fungi, mark my words.

 

I totally agree it is at least one fungus, and the crustose term is descriptive so it works for me; just unfamiliar in the fungal context to my NA vocabulary.

 

"what would have helped was a well focused image with a small aperture offering good depth of field but we have what we have.

 

we can still hope for more, if the original poster has not thrown his computer into the deep freeze and run away screaming, vowing never to return.

 

"from the long term perspective yes this woundwood is strong, so strong in fact that a wound wood occlusion from a large euc was found in the Australian outback and was thought to be a boats frame, it had survived the fire that had burnt the rest of the tree away!

 

Yes, trees make amazing and longterm responses.

 

"so yes a tree can stand like this as long as it isnt colonised by an aggressive parasitic fungi such as Kretschmaria (plaques evident)

 

Even if the black color is what you suspect (see above), is that proof of overwhelming colonisation, or mere presence of a fungal pest? K deusta can be lethargic and compartmentalised indefinitely, ime in NA.

 

"much of the issues facing trees are fungal related, a very vast majority (following major stress and or injury)

 

"Vast" is not vast enough, without a superlative adverb? Please allow me to suggest a whole host of other issues that wounded trees face in the context of this thread, *tree* risk assessment. Load, vitality, owner's risk tolerance, assessor's knowledge of mitigation options among them.

 

"so to not look at it from a fungal perspective in the FIRST instance is pretty naive.

 

True, in the context of the assignment, arboriculture. Studying fungal strategies of wood decay in trees is critically important, but to forget that it takes two to tango might be not only naive but neglectful. The tree is always involved in these trials of strength, as I naively noted nearly 10 years ago in the ISA journal:

 

FUNGAL STRATEGIES OF WOOD DECAY IN TREES

 

In 1878, in Germany, as I learned in Forestry 101, the modern science of tree care was born with the publication of Robert Hartig’s text on tree disease. This landmark book described the parasitic mode of life of Armillaria on Scots pine and documented the breakdown of cell walls by Phellinus pini. In 1863, Schacht had described the invasion of cell walls by fungal hyphae. Lacking the tools necessary for a closer analysis, but building on Schacht’s work, Hartig postulated that enzymes secreted by fungal hyphae dissolved lignin and caused secondary cell walls to collapse. As a result, wood would become worthless, and trees would fall down.

 

In 2000, in Germany, the science of tree care took a great leap forward. Building on the work of Hartig, Shigo and many others, Francis W.F.M.R. Schwarze, Julia Engels and Claus Mattheck published Fungal Strategies of Wood Decay in Trees. Now available worldwide, and made readily accessible to English speakers thanks to the superlative translation work of William Linnard, this book shows the reader an entirely new way of looking at decay in trees. By understanding fungus-tree interaction more completely, the tree manager can make decisions about how to handle infected trees with more certainty.

 

More certainty is certainly needed today. Many authorities tell tree managers that infections by Armillaria, Ganoderma, Inonotus and other fungi ((such as K deusta-2011) are considered sufficient cause for immediate removal of the tree for fear of failure. However, based on over ten years of research, Schwarze tells us “…the mere occurrence of a fungus fruit body on a tree does not indicate the extent of the decay…Degradation processes, host differences and environmental conditions are too diverse…decays often affect only a small amount of wood in the tree, so that stability and safety are not impaired.”

 

The book begins with a review of wood anatomy, focusing on the layered structure of the cell wall. Readers of Mattheck’s earlier work will recognize the hedgehog demonstrating the mechanical stresses within the tree. By listening to this “body language” spoken inside the tree, the diagnostician may “hear” the decay spread--and sometimes stop. With magnification up to 1000x, the reader is able to see clearly the action of the fungus in the cells, and the reaction of the trees to the attack.

 

Fungal pathology is reviewed next; the brown, white and soft rots. Much advanced information on soft rots, which were first described by Schacht in 1863, is presented. For instance, research by Schwarze et al prove what Sinclair, Lyon and Johnson saw indications of in 1987—that Hypoxylon deustum (a.k.a. Ustulina deusta) causes a soft rot in the sapwood of various trees. This is just one example of a pathogen shifting strategies, from saprophyte to parasite, or from enzyme-secreting to hyphae-growing that the authors note, especially on moisture-stressed trees.

 

Chapter Three, the heart of the book, is devoted to Fungus-Host Combinations. For a diagnostician of limited understanding, such as the reviewer, the illustrations here tell the tale of fungal pathology better than a thousand words. First, electron micrographs take the eye into intercellular and intracellular space, where the chemical battles take place. Then, three-dimensional anatomic drawings paint a distinct picture of the disease and the defense. Finally photographs, of standing trees and cross-sections, show what we all see in real life when a rotting tree is cut down and cut up.

 

By pulling the eye and the mind from the inside of the tree to the outside and back again, the book allows the reader to exhaustively examine what takes place when fungus and tree combine. Still, as Schwarze says, “it requires an effort to understand these…’trials of strength’…the only sensible approach to predicting the future expansion of a decay…” Or termination of a decay process; for he and others have observed, “many trees, old and young, in which a decay has been successfully compartmentalized”. The authors note why “stress treatment” fertilization of struggling trees often backfires—decay fungi thrive on excess nitrogen.

 

Chapter 4 begins with the compartmentalization model, and verifies that theory with microscopic assessment. Since most fungi which endanger trees’ stability work from the inside out, the ways that trees resist that outward spread are reviewed at some length. Xylem rays can be the trees’ Achilles Heels, the pathogens’ paths of least resistance. Similarly, xylem cracks produced by rapid drying after removal of a branch are “motorways” for infection, so the authors suggest that “the use of wound sealants could be quite successful against wound parasites. However there is still a great need for research here.” When large branches must be removed, experimenting with sealants seems preferable to opening the heartwood to decay.

 

Throughout the book, we are reminded that the tree’s vitality and its energy reserves are the most important factors in making a prognosis. Since fungal spores are present throughout the air, soil and water that surrounds the tree, it is the arborist’s first and constant task to make trees stronger and more resistant to any attack. If fungus gets a foothold in a tree, following the discoveries within Fungal Strategies of Wood Decay in Trees can lead to a program to resist decay and retain and increase tree value.

 

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

Aye aye Cap'n Tony; all's cool over here. and that's small "t" and no Mr., keeping some fitting humility.

 

 

Throughout the book, we are reminded that the tree’s vitality and its energy reserves are the most important factors in making a prognosis. Since fungal spores are present throughout the air, soil and water that surrounds the tree, it is the arborist’s first and constant task to make trees stronger and more resistant to any attack. If fungus gets a foothold in a tree, following the discoveries within Fungal Strategies of Wood Decay in Trees can lead to a program to resist decay and retain and increase tree value.

 

 

Then let me see you retain a lime with kretschmaria, or a horse chestnut with ganoderma australe, it really aint as simple as you paint in spouting from books.

 

Whilst there is spores in the air at all times is true, it really doesnt mean infection is a certainty, this aspect is vastly more complex, and your not going to summarise that in a few paragraphs.

 

And i certainly need no lessons on any of the above:001_smile:

[Fungus]

Then let me see you retain a lime with kretschmaria, or a horse chestnut with ganoderma australe, it really aint as simple as you paint in spouting from books. Whilst there is spores in the air at all times is true, it really doesnt mean infection is a certainty, this aspect is vastly more complex, and your not going to summarise that in a few paragraphs. And i certainly need no lessons on any of the above:001_smile:

 

Tony,

And I whole-hearted second that , not much to be learned from a copycat ignorent of all research done over the 10+ years after the book he simply summarizes without adding something sensible to it was published. Speaking of "narrowminded arrogance" based on a total lack of expertise.

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

 

Chapter 4 begins with the compartmentalization model, and verifies that theory with microscopic assessment. Since most fungi which endanger trees’ stability work from the inside out, the ways that trees resist that outward spread are reviewed at some length. Xylem rays can be the trees’ Achilles Heels, the pathogens’ paths of least resistance. Similarly, xylem cracks produced by rapid drying after removal of a branch are “motorways” for infection, so the authors suggest that “the use of wound sealants could be quite successful against wound parasites. However there is still a great need for research here.” When large branches must be removed, experimenting with sealants seems preferable to opening the heartwood to decay.

 

 

This bit is outdated, or i am just thinking before my time perhaps?

 

wound sealants really, are we going backwards... today the real edge in research is in the use of oils within the saws lubricant system to inoculate cut surfaces with fungi that are aggressively territorial, and whose successors are harmless saprophytic varieties. We should not be looking to methods that are neither natural nor holistic. I suggest looking toward the work of Paul Stamets regarding possible routes and ideas for research if you REALLY want to advance arboriculture. Wounds are a natural process of a trees life, wounds found in nature are many times more complex and variable and often result in being colonised first by more benign fungi. This creates a complex micro environment that more problematic fungi have great difficulty circumnavigating. When we make large cuts albeit neatly to a branch bark ridge/collar we offer a large surface area with direct avenue to the ripe or heartwood volumes a scenario far more suited to wound parasites, like Polyporus squammosus, Ganodermas, Laetiporus etc.

 

We all want to be better at what we do treeseer, and we are all trying, I will be frank, your style comes a cross as someone who has read extensively and feels ultra secure in that path of knowledge aquirement, and forthright in applying it.

 

My advice is to accept there is soooooo very much more work to be done in this business and to realise that books are a moment in time and to be appreciated as such, but to never take all as gospel till you have seen it with your own eyes.

 

As far as barrier zones and compartmentalisation are concerned, they are not the ultimate defence, and NEVER will be, for fungi have within thier arsenal the capacity to break down EVERY single chemical on this planet. they work for some and not for others. BEWARE of relying on the compartmentalisation capacity of trees, especially within the context of thier individual natural neighbourhoods