Sudden Euc Death

[Cassian]

Cassian,

Photo 1 : without pores and tubes I would expect this to be a corticiod Aphyllophorales, with pores and tubes a poroid Aphyllophorales.

Photo 2/3 : without microscopical analysis this looks like mycelial/hyphal sheets of a not yet fruiting macrofungus.

Photo 4 : Anamorph of what seems to be K. deusta.

Photo 5 : Teleomorph of the same species.

 

These observations (bar 1 which I do not have the training to understand) ring very true to my instincts/observations. Thankyou:thumbup:

[Cassian]

As far as conclusions can be reached in this phase of the analyses and with the present macroscopical documentation, I would attribute the dramatic effects to a combined strategy of the Cryptonectria and K. deusta, where the Cryphonectria is the primary parasitic and not wood degrading pathogen and K. deusta is the secondary pathogen starting off as a saprotrophic soft rotting the heart wood inside out and becoming parasitic once the living tissue is reached through invasion of radial rays and the remaining living cambium is killed, after which it fruits with anamorphs within a year developing into teleomorphs.

If this is the case, the FB's of Cryphonectria should be found scattered over the trunk (causing local bark and cambium necrosis and/or canker ?) and the FB's of K. deusta should be found at the base of the trees.

 

This perspective really fits our story and the perspectives given me by other Oz Arbs involved (Sean Freeman). There is another fungi (3rd) in this equation. In all the failed dead Eucalypts I have observed (and photographed) another fruiting body (small thin and brown - below) has been present. Have also seen it on standing dead and live gums with the advanced canker symptoms and prolific wood decay. The presence of this FB is I believe an indicator the tree is close to failing. This 3rd FB is indicative of stage 3 and snap time.

[Fungus]

There is another fungi (3rd) in this equation. In all the failed dead Eucalypts I have observed (and photographed) another fruiting body (small thin and brown - below) has been present. Have also seen it on standing dead and live gums with the advanced canker symptoms and prolific wood decay. The presence of this FB is I believe an indicator the tree is close to failing. This 3rd FB is indicative of stage 3 and snap time.

 

Cassian,

Concerning your remark on Aphyllophorales, these are Basidiomycetes without gills (with gills = Agaricales), but with a smooth (f.i. Jelly fungi, Stereum, Peniophora, Sparassis), poroid or meruloid (f.i. most bracket fungi, such as Trametes, Ganoderma, Phellinus, Fomes, Inonotus, Fistulina, Polyporus, Merulius, Serpula, etc.), spiny or dentate (f.i. Steccherinum, Hericium, Hydnaceae), ribbed or pseudo-gilled (f.i. Cantharellus, Schizophyllum, Gloeophyllum) hymenium, to which I think the species above depicted also belongs.

So my question is : does the 3rd fungus have a smooth hymenium, pores and tubes or pseudo-lamellae on the lower side of the brackets, are the FB's annual or perennial and what colour do the ripe spores have ?

Edited August 9, 2011 by Fungus

[treeseer]

Photo 2/3 : without microscopical analysis this looks like mycelial/hyphal sheets of a not yet fruiting macrofungus.

 

Gerrit, attached are microscopic images of those sheets, seen on post 17. The microscope was much better than the operators, sad to say; the images are of sliced sections. We were later advised to try steaming these sheets to see if we could get spores to release. Other ideas on preparation? Staining? agitating in solution?

 

The first and 4th are lower res--40x? The 2nd and 3rd higher--200x? If these images may have diagnostic value please let us know what you see. Others of course please pitch in as your expertise allows. I apologize for the reference to these as fb's before any f was seen. (i do hope this investigation bears some f before we are done ) Images courtesy Mr. Steven Richards of ArborLogic.

[treeseer]

these 5 are of degraded wood fibers, with some fascinating structures attached, the identity or value of which I shan't even guess at.

[treeseer]

these 5 are of degraded wood fibers, with some fascinating structures attached, the identity or diagnostic value of which I shan't even guess at.

 

But still hope for.

[Fungus]

1. Photo 2/3 : without microscopical analysis this looks like mycelial/hyphal sheets of a not yet fruiting macrofungus

2. attached are microscopic images of those sheets ... the images are of sliced sections ... Other ideas on preparation? Staining? agitating in solution? The first and 4th are lower res--40x? The 2nd and 3rd higher--200x?

3. steaming these sheets to see if we could get spores to release.

4. If these images may have diagnostic value please let us know what you see.

 

Guy,

You really got me confused now, first you said you are based in SE USA (North Carolina), from which country your posts and article on "frotty flux" came, and now you present yourself as being part of a field reseach team on sudden eucalypt or gum death in Australia.

1. Could well be, but as said before, without microscopical analysis nothing is certain.

2. Wouldn't it be better if microscopical analysis of the material was done by a local professional mycologist, who has the necessary equipment and chemicals, knows how to make very thin sliced sections suited for at least 1.000 times magnification, to stain or test them with the proper chemicals or reagens and knows what to look for in the preparations (septum, clamp connection, thin or thick walled hyphae, monomitic or dimitic hyphal systems, incrustration, etc.) ?

3. You cannot release spores from sterile, i.e. non-reproductive hyphae unless it's mycelium of a microfungus a-sexually producing (conidio)spores.

4. As you will have concluded after my above remarks, this type of microscopic imaging has no diagnostic value.

Edited August 11, 2011 by Fungus

[treeseer]

Guy,

You really got me confused now, first you said you are based in SE USA (North Carolina), from which country your posts and article on "frotty flux" came, and now you present yourself as being part of a field reseach team on sudden eucalypt or gum death in Australia.

 

Gerrit, I did not think you would be so easily confused. As you no doubt leave your home country from time to time, I am not confined to mine.

 

1. Could well be, but as said before, without microscopical analysis nothing is certain.

 

We seek to approach certainty, or at least do away with some of our ignorance, through microscopical analysis.

 

2. Wouldn't it be better if microscopical analysis of the material was done by a local professional mycologist, who has the necessary equipment and chemicals, knows how to make very thin sliced sections suited for at least 1.000 times magnification, to stain or test them with the proper chemicals or reagens and knows what to look for in the preparations (septum, clamp connection, thin or thick walled hyphae, monomitic or dimitic hyphal systems, incrustration, etc.) ?

 

Of course; it would also be better to have world peace, and a chicken in every pot. We approached the Queensland Mycological Society, who collectively admitted no expertise with wood decay fungi. The only member with some experience in this area moved to NZ.

 

3. You cannot release spores from sterile, i.e. non-reproductive hyphae unless it's mycelium of a microfungus a-sexually producing (conidio)spores.

 

That is what I was hoping for. btw this advice was delivered by what i was told was the best private lab in Queensland, which we are striving to engage in this effort, in lieu of government facilities.

 

4. As you will have concluded after my above remarks, this type of microscopic imaging has no diagnostic value.

 

As you may have guessed from previous conversations, I believe that jumping to conclusions is not only unscientific. but it short-circuits the diagnostic process. I acknowledge the severe limitations of our expertise, and am peddling our pictures elsewhere, as we seek to improve our technique.

 

If any other forum users are able to consider these images with a spirit of cooperation, we would also welcome constructive feedback. Brisbane is not Amsterdam; we are honestly trying to do the best with what we have, and we really could use some help here! The disease is invading the forest and the city, and the trees have no apparent defense to its spread.

[Fungus]

- We seek to approach certainty, or at least do away with some of our ignorance, through microscopical analysis.

 

- "Wouldn't it be better if microscopical analysis of the material was done by a local professional mycologist, who has the necessary equipment and chemicals, knows how to make very thin sliced sections suited for at least 1.000 times magnification, to stain or test them with the proper chemicals or reagens and knows what to look for in the preparations (septum, clamp connection, thin or thick walled hyphae, monomitic or dimitic hyphal systems, incrustration, etc.) ?"

- Of course; it would also be better to have world peace, and a chicken in every pot. We approached the Queensland Mycological Society, who collectively admitted no expertise with wood decay fungi. The only member with some experience in this area moved to NZ.

 

- "You cannot release spores from sterile, i.e. non-reproductive hyphae unless it's mycelium of a microfungus a-sexually producing (conidio)spores."

- That is what I was hoping for. btw this advice was delivered by what i was told was the best private lab in Queensland, which we are striving to engage in this effort, in lieu of government facilities.

 

- "As you will have concluded after my above remarks, this type of microscopic imaging has no diagnostic value."

- As you may have guessed from previous conversations, I believe that jumping to conclusions is not only unscientific. but it short-circuits the diagnostic process. I acknowledge the severe limitations of our expertise, and am peddling our pictures elsewhere, as we seek to improve our technique.

 

- If any other forum users are able to consider these images with a spirit of co/operation, we would also welcome constructive feedback. Brisbane is not Amsterdam; we are honestly trying to do the best with what we have, and we really could use some help here! The disease is invading the forest and the city, and the trees have no apparent defense to its spread.

 

Guy,

I withdraw from this senseless and time consuming discussion with someone who refuses to understand my message and seems to be in need of an special hearing aid. Please direct your questions and remarks to someone else. Good luck on your efforts to solve a problem you'll never get a grip on by using invalid methods of non-scientific "research".

[treeseer]

"make very thin sliced sections suited for at least 1.000 times magnification, to stain or test them with the proper chemicals or reagens and knows what to look for in the preparations (septum, clamp connection, thin or thick walled hyphae, monomitic or dimitic hyphal systems, incrustration, etc.)"

 

We've excised Gerrit's constructive advice and will follow it. We may have a microtome available, and have ordered the proper stains. We know enough to look for septa and the wall thickness of hyphae. I only have 2 pathology courses and some related graduate work (one peer-reviewed bit of a lit review attached from ~10 years ago), but i acknowledge that I am nearly as incompetent at this as has been suggested.

 

If a skilled mycologist with macrofungal experience was in Queensland, I would be knocking at her door and offering my firstborn to take this over; but then at 22 he is quite a handful! and may not go along with the deal. I still hope for other constructive advice from other contributors, as I know there are many experienced in this field who might be willing to guide our efforts.

 

The teleomorph that we all thought was K deusta was seemingly spent and yielded no visible spores, and K deusta seems to be secondary, so I shan't embarass myself any more by posting that trash. We will post our best efforts, in hopes of cooperation. Thanks to all.