M Redirect Traverse

[vduben]

so would the 'm' technique would be used only as a very short secondary anchor?

[D Mc]

Tony, I am virtually positive Laz was not criticising you personally. It is always good to bring forth techniques as the industry develops. I believe his main concern on this particular technique is that it is discussed often and yet I have never once seen inherent dangers discussed or referred to.

 

With most of our tools and techniques there are pros and cons, times to use them and times not to. But we need to be aware of all ramifications of those techniques in order to accurately judge if it is right for the particular occasion or not.

 

Dave

[Laz]

Thanks Dave - I hadn't spotted your reply Tony.

 

My observations are never meant in a personal manner, unless I specifically mention a name.

 

Take care

Laz

[Tom Dunlap]

Using any sort of redirect that doesn't have bomb proof strength is going to lead to failure at some time.

 

The M redi shouldn't ever be singled out as bad if it's built correctly.

 

Many times I see climbers use redis or lanyard positions that would NEVER be strong enough as primary TIPs. In a lot of these choices the climber is putting themselves at risk because they overload the redi. If they ever had to rely on the redi/lanyard position it would be likely to fail.

 

Like many other considerations climbers must look and find the weakest link in the system. It should NEVER be the first link!

[Laz]

I disagree on this Tom.

 

Re-directs are used usually (at least by me) at the extremeties of branches; there is often a risk of a re-direct failing. But I don't worry about that, becuase I still have favourable swing angles. The potential swing can easily be controlled by belaying the line.

 

The issue with the M is it compromises the primary anchor. That should never be encouraged. The idea of a secondary tie in is to reduce the risks of having just one; where is the logic and sound reason in compromising the effectiveness of the primary anchor to a potential freefall situation?

 

There isn't any.

 

Even if the anchors are bomb proof, there are other risks:

There are now four strands of line branching out from the same point on the harness. If ANY one of those is cut, again, the climber goes into freefall.

 

These scenarios are likely to lead to serious PERMANENT injury or death.

 

Hard to justify that risk when its not even necessary to use the technique.

 

Hell, I see climbers routinely tie in to too small a TIP all the time - I doubt they pay much attention with a secodary tie in either, probably because they think they still have the first to rely on.

 

Thats my stand on it. I've explained the risks well enough, its up to each climber to understand them.

 

Personally, I'm tired of climbers trying and dying when it just isn't necessary. It also threatens my insurance premiums and induces more legislation.......

 

To be taken seriously as professionals, we have to improve safety and efficiency, not constantly chip away at them.

 

Saddle up cowboys - ride on!

 

Yehah!

[Dean Lofthouse]

I personally find it hard to believe that people who are climbing now, actually have to ask others what thickness of branch constitues a good TIP, thickness of your wrist is one answer given out for example.

 

Surely this shouyld be taught on the climbing course, IMO it is one of the most crucial factors in climbing. The TIP or primary anchor has a vast number of different factors that have to be considered when assessing it, not just how thick it is.

 

Courses need to be more in depth

 

Soory Laz, I'm off on a tangent again

[Laz]

Its a very relevant point Dean.

 

Climbing on TIPS as thick as a wrist is asking for trouble. Quite a few variables there that aren't considered.

 

The single biggest issue of tree work safety, is usually having to work with one anchor, yet having no clue as to how strong it is.

 

Pulling straight down, its amazing what will hold you, but start moving out and up, and it can be alarming what won't.

 

A case in point that ties in with this discussion stateside:

http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=137641&Main=137455#Post137641

 

To take your point about a wrist size Dean, my wrists are pretty thick at 8 inches round, making them 2.5inches thick. That was the TIP that bust out in the thread.

 

I prefer something in the region of 4-6 inches diameter, depending on species and the taper ( height over diameter ratio) of what I'm tied into.

 

By that reasoning, I tie into something as thick as my forearm if all is well.

 

Any uncertainty from a distant throw, and its 8" thick minimum, looking for a second crotch as back up (SRT).

[Dean Lofthouse]

I try to pick a vertical TIP no thinner than my forearm.

 

I try to pick branches that would, IMO still support my weight if it were turned through 90 degrees.

 

Obviously bomb proof anchors such as this are not always available.

 

If I do find a bomb proof anchor and I need something a bit higher, I put in a redirect higher up leaving my main TIP as a bomb proof anchor, trying not to put my full weight on the redirect and try to spread the weight .

 

It's a case of having to think all the time, try to understand side loading and don't take chances, there's always a safe way.

[Laz]

Be wary of using a re-direct above your main tip. It increases the anchor forces substantially. Especially with a rope guide as the main TIP and then a double pulley as the redirect.

 

Better to tie in higher and back stay, or other techniques using the access line.

[High Scale]

Something I'd been meaning to post after watching Stuart Witt try it out in the Masters up in sunny Preston...

 

After setting up a M-redirect on the end of a slippery limbwalk, SW tightened the system up a bit, sat back into the system and began to pull himself along what was basically a retrievable traverse.

 

Swish. Its got potential and one day when I finally get my harness back on I'll have a go with my pantin for super laziness...

 

(I know, I know... you want photos. I see what I can do)

 

 

Why did he not just tippy toe along the limb?