Winches and loler?

[_tc]

I think I know the answer to this already but thought I would ask those with more experience on here. Are vehicle mounted winches covered under loler?

[treequip]

Only if you use them to lift a load or tension a speed line or otherwise suspend a load at height.

 

Dragging stuff along the ground is outside the scope of the loler legislation

[_tc]

Brill that is what I hoped thanks

[b101uk]

One could argue that pulling anything up a slope ware if the winch rope was to brake the load would move down hill under the force of gravity could be construed as being a lifting exercise as could any pull at an angle of more than >45deg up or down given the force then is predominantly gravity (>50% of the mass of the object is trying to pull it down hill)

[treequip]

One could argue that pulling anything up a slope ware if the winch rope was to brake the load would move down hill under the force of gravity could be construed as being a lifting exercise as could any pull at an angle of more than >45deg up or down given the force then is predominantly gravity (>50% of the mass of the object is trying to pull it down hill)

 

 

 

Nope

 

The LOLER regulations are Lifting Operations and Lifting Equipment Regulations

Lifting by default means off the ground. If the load stays on the ground it’s outside the scope of the LOLER regs.

 

And from the HSE

 

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/ais30.pdf

 

What is not lifting equipment in arboriculture?

Equipment that does not lift or lower loads, for example any equipment used for winching operations at ground level where the load does not leave the ground, such as skidding operations.

Andy

[ecolojim]

From memory one of the stands at the apf who were demoing speedlining commented that the winch need not be lowered to tension the speedline so long as it did not function as the actual anchor once material was suspended on the line. For this reason, once tensioned, two friction hitches fastened to the two bumper recovery eyes were slid up the line to hold the tension

[treequip]

From memory one of the stands at the apf who were demoing speedlining commented that the winch need not be lowered to tension the speedline so long as it did not function as the actual anchor once material was suspended on the line. For this reason, once tensioned, two friction hitches fastened to the two bumper recovery eyes were slid up the line to hold the tension

 

I would agree with that.

 

As soon as you take the winch out of the system it need not be loler’d as long as that happens before the system suspends a load it’s all good.

 

Andy

[b101uk]

Nope

 

The LOLER regulations are Lifting Operations and Lifting Equipment Regulations

Lifting by default means off the ground. If the load stays on the ground it’s outside the scope of the LOLER regs.

 

And from the HSE

 

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/ais30.pdf

 

 

Andy

 

Are you saying you think what the HSE is right with regard to what’s lifting and what’s not.

 

How do you think it would go in a court of law if you were dragging something up a 85deg slope, would you argue because it was in contact with the ground it was pulling and not lifting thus exempt even given that 94.44% of the force would be gravity pulling it down the 85deg slope, contrast that with the same object one end of which is moved clear of horizontal ground so only 50% of the load is acting on the apparatus and the other end is on the ground yet you would freely class that as lifting, surely “lifting” has more of a relevance to the vector of gravity thus mass in it being the predominant force acting on whatever apparatus you are using.

 

Surely if logic was in play along with common sense with safety in mind like a responsible worker or business would implement the former above as a lifting operation even though it doesn’t leave the ground especially on angles above 45deg.

 

[treequip]

Are you saying you think what the HSE is right with regard to what’s lifting and what’s not.

 

How do you think it would go in a court of law if you were dragging something up a 85deg slope, would you argue because it was in contact with the ground it was pulling and not lifting thus exempt even given that 94.44% of the force would be gravity pulling it down the 85deg slope, contrast that with the same object one end of which is moved clear of horizontal ground so only 50% of the load is acting on the apparatus and the other end is on the ground yet you would freely class that as lifting, surely “lifting” has more of a relevance to the vector of gravity thus mass in it being the predominant force acting on whatever apparatus you are using.

 

Surely if logic was in play along with common sense with safety in mind like a responsible worker or business would implement the former above as a lifting operation even though it doesn’t leave the ground especially on angles above 45deg.

 

 

How do you think I would go on in court? What am I to be charged with? If it’s contravention of the LOLER regulations it simply wouldn’t get there would it?

 

What makes you think the HSE is wrong on this? they are simply reproducing what the legislation says. It’s called the LIFTING regulations not the extreme dragging stuff up a hill regulations!

 

Implementing the lifting regulations for skidding probably isn’t the way to go. I don’t know what you envisage dragging or why you would need to drag that up a near vertical slope but IF I were going to do that it would merit a risk assessment and method statement rather than relying on an inappropriate standard.

 

Andy

[b101uk]

How do you think I would go on in court? What am I to be charged with? If it’s contravention of the LOLER regulations it simply wouldn’t get there would it?

 

What makes you think the HSE is wrong on this? they are simply reproducing what the legislation says. It’s called the LIFTING regulations not the extreme dragging stuff up a hill regulations!

 

Implementing the lifting regulations for skidding probably isn’t the way to go. I don’t know what you envisage dragging or why you would need to drag that up a near vertical slope but IF I were going to do that it would merit a risk assessment and method statement rather than relying on an inappropriate standard.

 

Andy

 

If you don’t have a clue what I have said or cannot comprehend its merits and when something becomes a lifting exercise even when its still in contact with the ground or how when at an angle of >45deg that the predominant force becomes gravity acting agenised an object then carry on.

 

As to how you say “inappropriate standard” implying that somehow that applying lifting regulations on top of any pulling regulations and selecting the highest/safest value given in either is somehow bad/detrimental/wrong when dealing with steep inclines is at best stupid on your part.

 

Definition in law of a lifting operation:

The Lifting Operations and Lifting Equipment Regulations 1998 (LOLER)

 

Interpretation

2.—(1) In these Regulations, unless the context otherwise requires—

 

“lifting operation” has the meaning given in regulation 8(2);

 

Organisation of lifting operations

8.—(2) In this regulation “lifting operation” means an operation concerned with the lifting or lowering of a load.

 

You will note it dose not say anything about ground contact or lack of it or that lifting only takes place in the vertical plane of gravity, just merely lifting or lowering, so following logic & forces then above 45deg the predominant direction of movement is up/down rather than horizontally (besides mass elements) and the load is being controlled by an attachment above it.