decay detection, weapon of choice?

[Marcus B-T]

I am working with Julian to intergrate outputs from our TTMS software into THREATS so that they have relevance to the risk assessement and the management outcomes rather than just being interesting information; because both systems are based on population analysis, this is relatively straight forward. Also TTMS gives info on wood drying, cankers, some insect pests and root damage from construction. It can do this because the heat signitures (the respose times) of each of these are different; so the system has tremendous flexibility.

TTMS BASIC software v2.pdf

promo 02-09.pdf

[Arborist Sites]

Sorry Marcus but i still cant see the commercial viability of thermal imaging, just like the picus....

 

You could argue that a resistograph is ok based on price.

 

I see the industry as wraped up in its own little important world, that without us everything will fall apart....

 

It is important to remember these three things

 

* To 99.9% of the population trees are a real pain in the bum.

 

* People wont pay for something they dont desperatly need (a tree report etc etc).

 

* People will eventually realise that actually trees are not really a H&S threat, afterall they have never really been in the past so why now

 

I do see the positives of your system in a purely research role (if it is first proven over the next few years).

 

I dont mean to be negative but we work on alot of projects outside of arb and it has really put into perspective how we are all kind of seen as leaches on the old H&S bandwagon.

 

By the way it may not sound like it but i do love trees and thats the only reason we are still offering services in the industry because to be honest there are a lot easier ways to make a living.

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

Sorry Marcus but i still cant see the commercial viability of thermal imaging, just like the picus....

 

You could argue that a resistograph is ok based on price.

 

I see the industry as wraped up in its own little important world, that without us everything will fall apart....

 

It is important to remember these three things

 

* To 99.9% of the population trees are a real pain in the bum.

 

* People wont pay for something they dont desperatly need (a tree report etc etc).

 

* People will eventually realise that actually trees are not really a H&S threat, afterall they have never really been in the past so why now

 

I do see the positives of your system in a purely research role (if it is first proven over the next few years).

 

I dont mean to be negative but we work on alot of projects outside of arb and it has really put into perspective how we are all kind of seen as leaches on the old H&S bandwagon.

 

By the way it may not sound like it but i do love trees and thats the only reason we are still offering services in the industry because to be honest there are a lot easier ways to make a living.

 

Interesting viewpoint.

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

Taking out your chemically induced cravings on a poor unsuspecting poster is bang out of order Mr Clark.

 

........kidding, hope it's going well for you.

 

 

 

 

great post btw, succinct, but well spelt out.

 

 

 

 

.

 

Is he trying to quit the tabs monkey!

[Arborist Sites]

I know it probably sounds a bit strong but thats what i am feeling from clients and people i speak too..

 

I personally feel that if we try to take the industry forward too quickly without fixing the basics it will most likely go jugs up...

 

I know thermal imaging sounds lovely but as an industry we cant even decide on basic rules and guidlines, if other industries could really see the chaos we are in it would be hilarious for them.

 

I suppose that then leads onto where is the root of the problem ? the simple answer being very poor leadership and representation by the AA.

 

Sorry, to put it back on thread. Maybe we should put all this technical mumbo jumbo on the shelf and get our mallets and increment boarers back out and learn to walk before we can run.

 

 

Have a nice bible passage to make you think

 

1 Corinthians

 

11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

 

Can anybody see the relivance

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

I know it probably sounds a bit strong but thats what i am feeling from clients and people i speak too..

 

I personally feel that if we try to take the industry forward too quickly without fixing the basics it will most likely go jugs up...

 

I know thermal imaging sounds lovely but as an industry we cant even decide on basic rules and guidlines, if other industries could really see the chaos we are in it would be hilarious for them.

 

I suppose that then leads onto where is the root of the problem ? the simple answer being very poor leadership and representation by the AA.

 

Sorry, to put it back on thread. Maybe we should put all this technical mumbo jumbo on the shelf and get our mallets and increment boarers back out and learn to walk before we can run.

 

 

Have a nice bible passage to make you think

 

1 Corinthians

 

11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

 

Can anybody see the relivance

 

I know where your coming from, believe me.

 

I am a big fan of Claus, he likes to keep things simple, maybe even old school. He is even trying to demystify complex mechanics in a spoken form so that it is easily accsesable to even the modest arb. (just as well for my sake!)

 

My point is that sometimes simple is better, if I extract a core and show this to a client they can see and fully comprehend the decay/fracture potential of that sample.

 

I sometimes wonder if we dont try to make arboriculture appear to be some black art so only we can comprehend this magic.

 

The best information is the information that is easily and quickly understood, i believe it was einstien who said, if the answer to a problem seems overly complicated it is probably wrong. wise words indeed.

[Andy Clark]

Is he trying to quit the tabs monkey!

 

I sure am, HD......

 

Trying, but failing dreadfully. I ran out of fingernails to chew, so am back on 10/day.

 

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

I sure am, HD......

 

Trying, but failing dreadfully. I ran out of fingernails to chew, so am back on 10/day.

 

 

you have my deepest sympathy, believe me, I feel it man! had a stab at it last week, im soooooo weak! stick at it fella, you tried those patches yet?

 

they do help as long as you stay busy!

[Omniata]

The best information is the information that is easily and quickly understood, i believe it was einstien who said, if the answer to a problem seems overly complicated it is probably wrong. wise words indeed.

 

That's akin to Occam's razor too:

 

"When competing hypotheses are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selection of the hypothesis that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities while still sufficiently answering the question."

Or in simpler terms:

 

"When deciding between two models which make equivalent predictions, choose the simpler one."

 

 

BTW, no offence intended or implied... Personally I'm all for/a fan of new technology, but in it's own time when it's properly understood and accepted...

[Marcus B-T]

When a visual analysis of trees is carried out it identifies a number of attributes that the tree has and these often relate to Mattheck's ideas of how trees respond. The problem is that they are just that, attributes and it is hard to quantify them. What often happens is that based on the identification, work is carried out on the trees in response to the identification, because there is no way of separating out which ones are more likely to fail than others. This is the logical conclusion. However a proportion of the trees will not require work because the attribute is not sufficiently developed to cause a structural problem. Thermal imaging allows you to quantify the attributes identified through visual assessment, and find out at what point they become critical. Then work is recommeded when it is needed. In some cases work can be delayed (to wait and see what happens) in some cases it is unecessary.

 

Some examples.

 

Around 15% of K. duesta infections in Beech are purely saprophytic.

 

Around 50% of M. giganteous infections are due to historical damage the tree has recovered from.

 

Most Ganoderma sp. decay causes a retrenchment of the canopy such that work is unecessary apart from dead wood removal.

 

Thermal imaging allows you to make sence of the VTA data you collect. You can detect decay with it but it almost becomes a so what? Because what it also does is identifies the boundaries to a trees structural capabilities, you cannot do this with resistograph or any othe technology because you can't get a big enough set of data to base the assumptions on. However, these other technologies do have a place and the TI tells you when and where to drill, tap or whatever.

 

The industry may have its faults but why stick our heads in the sand. We already have most of the data that we need to make very good assumptions about trees, all we need is the methodology to make sence of it.

 

All I can say is that about three years ago I went to a beech tree in Bedfordshire that was due for removal because it had M. giganteous and K. duesta at the base. I surveyed it and made some calculations based on the data sets we had, and recomended that if the height could be reduced by around 25% it should be stable since every other beech with that amount of dysfuction fell below that particular height classification. I consulted with J Forbes Laird as to the practicalities of such a reduction and he agreed that the tree could just about withstand the amount of removal if the tree required it. The tree is still hollow, the tree still has fungi, the tree is still there, the tree is healthy, and the client saved around £1500.

 

Tree work becomes more focused, and fewer trees are removed. I disagree with the statement about the majority of people not liking trees but there is a problem with confidence of prediction. This tends to lead to a mitigative approach and work is carried out just in case. This is not a criticism since I have been in this situation myself. However a robust system that demonstartes that actually tree x is no different to 95% of the population is a compelling argument for not carrying out the work or not felling the tree. Every time a local authority tree survey is carried out, this data is collected and could be used to give us this information, but we are not making good use of this data. In every other biological field this approach is used, why not in arboriculture?

 

Trees adapt to their enviroments and it is only the outliers that fail. Finding the outliers is relatively straight forward but you need a methodology. It still starts with VTA and always will but before work is recommeded there should be an evaluation of those attributes that are idntified. THREATS is very good at dealing with many of them but even JFL agrees that TI can introduce an excellent next step before work is considered. If it can save the client's money why wouldn't they go for it.