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Old 12-06-12   #111 (permalink)
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Re: Climate change- discuss

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Originally Posted by Albedo View Post
Tony... I can see that you might have read this differently to the way I read it but I find it offensive.

Why should those who are concerned and informed about modern day environmental issues be compared to 'religious zealots' of the past.

Sorry but I don't find this acceptable.
Personally Im trying hard not to take offence at anything anyone says to me, I get too uptight and take it all too seriously.

in fact i take everything too seriously.
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"The scientific man does not aim at an immediate result. He does not expect that his advanced ideas will be readily taken up. His work is like that of the planter for the future. His duty is to lay the foundation for those who are to come, and point the way. He lives and labors and hopes".~Nikola Tesla

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Old 12-06-12   #112 (permalink)
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Re: Climate change- discuss

mods modding themselves these days, now theres a novel thing!
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"There is no limit to what can be accomplished when no one cares who gets credit." - John Wooden

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."~Arthur Schopenhauer (German philosopher, 1788-1860)

"The acquisition of any knowledge is always of use to the intellect, because it may thus drive out useless things and retain the good. For nothing can be loved or hated unless it is first known".~Leonardo da Vinci

"The scientific man does not aim at an immediate result. He does not expect that his advanced ideas will be readily taken up. His work is like that of the planter for the future. His duty is to lay the foundation for those who are to come, and point the way. He lives and labors and hopes".~Nikola Tesla

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Old 12-06-12   #113 (permalink)
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Re: Climate change- discuss

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Does someone know the one thats named after the level of C02 they want to achieve?.... I've forgot and been googling and can't find it
350.org
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Old 12-06-12   #114 (permalink)
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Re: Climate change- discuss

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I know, I've been looking for it myself for 25 years, couldn't find it, which is one reason I am a sceptic.

What are the main reasons convince you?
I'm not a sceptic but wouldn't call myself convinced either.

A good place to start is with Arheniuss in approx 1900. About the time they discovered glacial cycles and started to figure out the ice ages this led to the study of what affects climate over geological time scales.

Arheniuss did some very interesting stuff with figuring how C02 can reradiate the suns heat back to the earths surface.

I could post a link but you may as well just google it.

I would add that I'm not going to post any links in this thread as I believe that the only way is to find out for yourself. If asked I'll find the info and point at it and thats my lot I'm afraid.
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Old 12-06-12   #115 (permalink)
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Re: Climate change- discuss

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Thanks Catweazel thats the one
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Old 12-06-12   #116 (permalink)
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Re: Climate change- discuss

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Originally Posted by Albedo View Post

I would add that I'm not going to post any links in this thread as I believe that the only way is to find out for yourself. If asked I'll find the info and point at it and thats my lot I'm afraid.
that is the whole point, its all out there to be read and uncovered.
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"There is no limit to what can be accomplished when no one cares who gets credit." - John Wooden

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."~Arthur Schopenhauer (German philosopher, 1788-1860)

"The acquisition of any knowledge is always of use to the intellect, because it may thus drive out useless things and retain the good. For nothing can be loved or hated unless it is first known".~Leonardo da Vinci

"The scientific man does not aim at an immediate result. He does not expect that his advanced ideas will be readily taken up. His work is like that of the planter for the future. His duty is to lay the foundation for those who are to come, and point the way. He lives and labors and hopes".~Nikola Tesla

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Old 12-06-12   #117 (permalink)
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Re: Climate change- discuss

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I'd rather let a hated vegetarian homosexual political scientist explain it himself.

Bjorn Lomborg sets global priorities | Video on TED.com
Great video everyone should watch and digest
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Old 12-06-12   #118 (permalink)
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Re: Climate change- discuss

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I don't know what but I suspect they gather CO2 % evidence from old ice and growth from fossil wood and somehow relate the two.
Have to say Tony- going off grid isn't going to help if the problem is caused by something else. We need to get rich/ get technical and get able which isn't going to happen if mankind goes down that route.
That isn't to say we shouldn't recycle etc- thats so patently a good idea
Also local food usually tastes better- look at tomatoes
But do you really want to give up pineapples/bananas/mangoes/avacado/dates/figs/the list goes on. Lets face it you will need to go vegan.
Humans want choice- they want interest. They may want to holiday in UK for a year because they think they have to because of the recession but ultimately they want the experience of other cultures and climates- snowboarding in Canada etc etc. Canoe down the Amazon- the list goes on and the more we do of these things the more of these experiences we feel we need just to be happy.
Meanwhile you are stuck in your 50 sq. mile world- you won't be pissed off will you? You are racing away in your head at the moment and that is stimulation enough but will it last. I'm not attacking you but questioning whether it will really make you happy.
Oh the dilemma of the tree hugger..........
The ice cores tell us Co2 follows temperature by hundreds of years, therefore logically the rise in Co2 is a result of warming, not a cause. Tree rings are a circus, I read the climategate emails, we are still waiting for the data for Manns Hockey Stick graph, a good book on the subject is The Hockey Stick Illusion by Andrew Montford, I've yet to see a credible rebuttal. Tree rings can be useful, but not they way the Hockey Team uses them measuring ring widths, there are too many other things effect tree growth besides temperature as most folks here can attest to.

Tree rings might be more use if they use isotopes instead, this article from before the science was politicised seems very apt, it was about a science paper from 1979 which predicted the warming, and the cooling off we are now experiencing, it goes on to predict further cooling, which is more of a worry for me as cold is not good for food production, or humans in general, warm is good.

Careful when going off on assumptions. I would pass the pepsi challenge with most folks here on carbon footprints, I could loosely be described as an environmentalist, currently studying Regerative Agriculture with the aim of becoming a consultant. Just because I am sceptical of the IPCC science don't think I'm not a tree hugger I know about environmental issues, climate change is not one IMO, soil erosion is by far a more concerning issue, followed by biodiversity/woodland loss, and then pollution, in that order.

I am further along the lifestyle path described by Tony Croft above, but that'd be off topic

People tend to get too emotional about this subject, I'd say step back a bit, I think it is because the media plays on emotions, that's called propaganda in my book

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Old 12-06-12   #119 (permalink)
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Re: Climate change- discuss

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Amazing
People here live in a democracy and they don't believe in the power of it.
It may not be instant- it may not be perfect but things do change.
OK greed doesn't change and the basic human condition remains constant ish but
If everyone shrugs there shoulders and says what can I do then theres no hope.
Like I say Nuclear armageddon was avoided and believe you me that was a serious concern mid to late 70's. I mean people were really worried about it.
Why can't we control CO2 -it's only a gas
I think you're taking the easy option and saying 'poor me-theres nothing I can do so I won't do anything'
Maybe what we learn along the way about controlling our atmosphere will come in useful when Earth has the next extinction event.
Keep the faith
It would be nice to believe that we did live in a democracy, but we dont.
Democracy is supposed to be governance of the people, by the people for the people.
Lets look at who we are governed by - a handful of people who are at best selected by local party structures, but increasingly imposed on us by party central office's. Hardly democratic. In fact party politics itself is inherently undemocratic because any MP dilutes the representation of his constituents by showing allegence to a party.
I accept, that pure democracy has its problems just as pure communism or any other idealistic system and pragmatic measures need to be put in place, but I would not call our system democratic.
The current Levinson inquiry gives us some interesting insights into how things work behind the scenes. We are also all probably aware of a number of 'inconsistencies' in our local government practices where ever we live in the country.
The reason people dont believe in the power of democracy is that they know, either consciously or intuitively that it is corrupted.
What I find particularly interesting in the west is that we bang on about the blatant corruption in places like Africa, while a far more sinister form of corruption takes place behind the scenes under our very noses.
Its all about power and control at the end of the day rather than good governance.

Anyway, this is a bit of a hijack, so back to the main thread.
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Old 12-06-12   #120 (permalink)
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Re: Climate change- discuss

i think most of the points have been covered here.

highlights for me; population (the real biggie), dessimation of the oil compaines grip on control, developing nations, scientific model is not definate. the Church of Yogurt Weaving.

so my tuppence worth, GW and environmental change is of little concequnce when there are so many people. harsh bottom line is, a lot of heads gotta go, reduces carbon emmissions in so many ways, living responsibly growing ur own etc re. The Church of Yogurt Weaving [TCYW] means people to all a have a lot more fertile space per capita, can we realistically house all the people on their own nice wee croft?
Oil companies; havent thought too much about it till reading this thread but yeah they hold the keys, and they have a very tight grip. what we can honestly do about this i have no clue. putting them out of bussiness by making fossil fuel redundant?... they just let us have the next technology at what ever price the choose, oder?
the developing nations arguement, yes they produce a heap more CO2 than us but what we can do we should, may be it will cause a ripple.
scientific model is not fact, fact. not much more needs to be said, all the arguments for the future are guesses, very well educated and informed guesses maybe, but still guesses.
Church of Yougurt Weaving green is the new religion, i'm pretty sceptical of all religions, but this one sits up with bhuddism, most of the time its not too offensive.

and over all, were doomed. we should all just get on with doing our bit, but have fun doing it, drive a V8 landy to do the recycling while you still can, aint no other new motor gonna make that sound. worcswuss says it well. lets just get on with it and the sooner the human race is gone the sooner this eccosystem we enhabit can get back to waiting for the next parasite to attack it.

fire at will.
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