john87

Bloody hell!!! That was close!!

john..

Have to be fair, I think that £275 for that is giving it away..

If i was a monied type and wanted one i would happily pay £1275 for that...

john..

21 hours ago, Moose McAlpine said:

 

Yeah, exactly. Mine's plated for 3,500kg but nothing stops you putting more on it.

 

Great till you have an accident, kill someone and go to jail for manslaughter, very clever..

john..

5 minutes ago, Botty Cough said:

So it's upto the driver to make sure they don't overload even though they have the capacity to do so by the look of it now then,

I agree with your version, that is what i always understood. It would be like trying to drive a 16ton rigid on a car licence but saying that you will not carry anything with it [Even then i would think it would be over 7.5ton]

john..

Well, i am certainly no tree expert, but, the house was built in the 1930's, yes?

The tree was not there then..

The house has no damage.

Heave or not, if you think about it, there is no way that the ground is going to expand to a larger volume than it occupied on the day the house was built, 90 years ago, before the tree, that is an impossibility and a matter of common sense.

So no worries with the house..

I would think the extension would be ok too.

As for the shitty tree with its TPO, Don't the whole place look better without the thing!

Why ****************wits plant trees in their gardens is beyond me..

john..

5 hours ago, sandspider said:

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I occasionally use a 7T forest master log splitter with a 25m extension cable. Think the splitter is 2200kw. I know using it with an extension lead longer than 10m isn't ideal, but it seems to work fine, and has done for years now. Am I damaging it?

Single phase or three phase??

I would imagine you are fine, the motor would have burnt out by now otherwise.

i will calc the cable size for you later, but a lot depends on the source of the power as this could be 2 feet from the consumer unit which could be 30 feet from the local substation, or is could be a shitty overhead supply 500yards long..

john..

Hi There,

You could have an extension lead 500 yards long, it makes no difference so long as you have calculated the size needed.

The current rating of the cable rarely comes into it. The usual factors are "earth fault loop impedance" [so that fuses and circuit breakers will operate correctly] and "volt drop" so that motors will start correctly and contactors not drop out etc

You have to calculate the size, as most of the cable calculators online are a mile out as they go about things backwards..

1, First step is select the OCPD [over current protection device] [that is fuse etc] size and TYPE you need.

2, Calculate the max EFLI for the breaker selected.

3, Calculate the max allowable volt drop.

4, Select a cable to suit 2 and 3 above.

Obviously the cable nominal current rating has to be higher than the load rating AFTER you have applied the derating factors, [grouping, how installed, [in the ground, clipped to wall, insulation etc] ambient temperature, max conductor temperature] but in the real world, you can EASILY, and usually do, end up with a cable with a nominal current rating FAR FAR higher than the load current, purely to meet the criteria for EFLI and volt drop..

john..

2 hours ago, GarethM said:

The extension is HO7RN-F, just ensure it doesn't get twisted as the cores will break over repeated coiling and uncoiling, it's thin copper wires after all.

 

You can get CY cable extension, it's braided for a little extra protection from damage but is like wrestling a bear in gloves whilst greased up like a mackerel.

 

You should be okay on 6mm extension, usual rules of don't leave it coiled up in use etc.

As you say you can get CY and SY, [the CY has a copper braid and the SY a steel one] but they are not intended as power cables, [they do not meet any standards for this] but for control circuits.

The braid is to stop EMF interference affecting whatever they control They are also HORRIBLE to handle as you say, especially in the cold. You can also have problems caused by the braid if the cable is damaged as the braid is not sufficient to act as a CPC, but IS sufficient to "liven up" whatever it is connected to.

The HO7 [HO7RN-F] is specifically made and INTENDED as "flex", that it why it has the "F" bit standing for "flexible conductors" which is why they ARE fine, that is the idea of it, they will flex without cracking in the same way as you could bend a sheet of paper to and fro as much as you liked, but if you did the same with thick card, it would fail before long.

Have a read of this..

https://www.elandcables.com/media/13rlt2rk/ec-statement-on-the-use-of-sy-cy-yy-cables-rina-18th-ed-with-summary.pdf

john..

Hi there,

Done some number crunching for you..

Just to carry 16A with the required max volt drop over that distance, [35m] works out at 2.5mm2 cable.

BUT, as i said the governing factor will be EFLI [so that the circuit breaker operates] and, do not forget that to START the motor will take about 6 to 10 times this current, so you are in practice, to start the motor reliably you are going to want a much larger cable or the motor simply will not start [and contactors will drop out due to undervoltage] and you will end up in a right mess..

So, taking an educated guess at the SUPPLY characteristics, you want the following, assuming the breaker protecting the circuit is a C32.

I am also assuming that you require a neutral too

IF, you want an armoured cable to bury in the ground, you want a 10mm2 four core, and you will use the armour as CPC [earth]

Note, you CANNOT use an armoured cable as "flex", it is not designed to be repeatedly bent, and besides, it would be terrible to handle.. This cable would be about 21mm in diameter and weigh about 36kg.

IF, you want flex, you want something called "HO7" This is the most beautifully supple, lovely, rubber covered stuff, Lovely to handle even in the freezing cold. With this, you want 10mm2 FIVE core..This cable would be about 24mm in diameter and weigh about 35kg.

The armoured cable will cost you about £264, plus the glands and adaptable boxes to terminate it into, and someone that knows what they are doing to fit the glands and terminate it for you.. [this is very tricky to do properly unless you know what you are doing]

If you want the HO7 flex, it will cost you about £390, plus a "trailing socket" for one end and a plug for the other..

Any questions, ask..

john..

1 hour ago, GarethM said:

Obviously that is 11.5A per phase, depending on the motor type it can be 3 or even has high as 7 times at start up and then voltage drop.

 

I've supplied 4kw stuff with 20m x 2.5mm, but it was always a risk as one damaged core and it's in the skip.

 

In the end just advised the customer to move the supply to within 10m as a 4mm+ extension is like getting a remortgage.

Yes, it is 11.5A per phase, but then with the PF and Eff, it will be just over 16A per phase.

Calculations are difficult as we do not know anything about the supply characteristics.. You are supposed to have a maximum volt drop of 5% in general and 3% for lighting, so lets say we will go for 3% in our extension cable as the rest will be used up in the installation cabling..

I could not find an online calculator that actually worked, so i will do the sums manually later and post back..

john..

3 minutes ago, GarethM said:

@john87 pretty much was going to be my next question as extension leads say 4mm+ get very pricey and liable to get damaged.

 

Any chance you could bury SWA closer to the job ?. The cost of a short extension would be peanuts 😀

That is a good idea!!

26 minutes ago, GarethM said:

Fair enough, how much power do you need ?.

Hi Gareth,

Ok, an 8kw motor, so that is 8000/1.732/400 = 11.5A but then guessing PF .8 and efficiency 90%  just over 16A ??

Then you would need an allowance for starting currents..

Pretty big cable??

john..

48 minutes ago, Dilz said:

PCE 9436422 CEE Adapter 32A-16A

WWW.THOMANN.DE

---

CEE Adapter 32A - 16A Mobile plastic distributor, type St. Anton-2f IP44 with bracket, 1x CEE connector 32 A 5p 400V...

 

Using one of these seems a legit way to go about it.   

 

Would it make sense to pull this in to the 32A outlet and then run a 16A cable to the machine or would a 32a cable be best to run from the outlet? Going to need about 30 - 35m of cable I reckon. 

 

 

 

As i think Gareth is about to mention, the extension lead is not going to be that simple and you really need to get an electrician with a brain involved. That is a very long run.. It is NOT NOT NOT, just a question of getting a "16A" extension lead..

You see, at that length of run, EFLI and volt drop are going to be the governing factors for the following reasons..

1, If the volt drop is too high, the motors will struggle to start if they start at all.

2, If EFLI is too high, in the event of a fault, the breakers will either trip too slowly or not at all. Either way, it will result in damage or electrocution..

I once sold a compressor to a farmer They connected it to a very long run of 2.5 twin and earth, The thing barely started...

A few days later, said farmer turns up all irate.. I go and have a look, and what had happened, is the motor had failed to start. As it was such a long run of cable, even though there was effectively a dead short, the "circuit" could not pull enough current to trip the breaker, so the power stayed on and the whole lot got hotter adn hotter until the motor had literally melted into a blob of aluminium and copper..

You see, a circuit breaker is selected to suit the load.. THEN a cable is selected on the basis of Volt drop and EFLI, which means that you could need a cable suited to, say, 70A for your 16A load..

Tell us exactly what it is you want to run and we can advise further..

john..

5 hours ago, PeteB said:

My missus watched a load of these programs about fat folk and mental illness seemed to be a common theme.  Low self esteem, comfort eating and denial was the start of the spiral....

I think eating is a habit, and just something they get used to as part of their routine..

The ones above are skinny compared to this one... Who are the idiots that feed them though>> They cannot go to get the food for themselves, so what are the loonies that help them thinking??

john..

14 minutes ago, Steve Bullman said:

 

Something wrong with them...

7 minutes ago, Steve Bullman said:

Yep seen stuff like this before. All this talk about eating only grass fed beef and not from these farms is all well and good but the simple fact is there’s too many of us to feed. Farms like this are the only way 

Maybe, but vast acreages in the US are used for the production of maize, purely to make the shitty ethanol that nobody wants in petrol. Apparently 40% of the entire maize production of the US is used in this way..

I think it is shameful when so many people are starving, more than shameful, obscene..

john..

16 hours ago, Joe Newton said:

In all honesty if it was the choice between a paintball gun filled with Sarin gas and getting up close and personal i think i might be holding my breath and excrcising my trigger finger. 

Odd that, as a few posts ago you thought it was pointless..

john..

Slightly off at a tangent, but this will be found interesting..1.pdf

16 hours ago, Mick Dempsey said:

Probably because it’s efficacy is in doubt.

I’ve seen them professionally destroyed over here, they use a stick to apply the insecticide directly into the nest, killing every individual very fast.

Then the advice is to leave well alone for a while to avoid stings from others returning.

Yes, but shooting at them will be MUCH more satisfying..

john..

15 minutes ago, whizzkid96 said:

The nuisance exemption also only applies to actionable nuisance in the very specific legal sense e.g when trees are touching a building and causing direct damage. 

 

There's no exemption for perceived nuisance, things like blocking light, fallen leaves etc. 

Not exactly.. True, light does not come into it, neither does leaves, BUT, it the thing invades your property by spreading roots or overhanging you can most certainly do something about it. "Actionable" is meaningless really. If you define it in relation to "the law does not concern itself with trifles" then great, as that is EXACTLY what the rules to do with "self abatement" are concerned with.

The right to defend your property in this way has been confirmed by the courts many times.

If you think i am wrong, produce evidence.

john..

1 hour ago, Old Farm said:

There is a chap in France who kills nests by shooting them with paint pellets loaded with insecticide.  Not an approved approach in the UK.

Great idea though!

john..

3 hours ago, GarethM said:

Yeap, it made life easier than explaining 3 phase to people.

 

We had a green light in the on/off switch mechanism too, so it was either green for go or red for no!.

Very good idea!! I take it you used to sell machinery or install it??

john..

2 hours ago, daltontrees said:

I don't know. But new Regulations were needed anyway. The 1969 Regulations were remade in 1999, then again in 2012. It's like buses, none come for ages then two come along at once. Politicians liek to shift things form primary to secondary legislation so tha the Ministers can mess about with them afterwards without full parliamentary approval.

Ahhhhhh.... It all becomes clear....

john..

14 hours ago, GarethM said:

If you're running on a 16a plug get phasenwender, they have a screwdriver turn on pins 2 & 3 allowing phase change without rewiring the plug.

 

I did have a thing of fitting phase rotation relays to equipment with a red lamp interrupt circuit.

 

So it turns on when ok but red lamp when attention needed.

That is clever! So if the phase rotation was wrong the machine will not start and a light comes on??

john..

4 hours ago, GarethM said:

If it's professionally installed it should be a 32a trip but also check which type of breaker is fitted, Type B, C or D.

 

C or D are better for welders and large electric motors unless fitted with soft starters as they pull a absolutely scary amount on startup.

True, but you cannot just swap them without checking the EFLI is low enough so probably stuck with what is there..

john..