Rune

that's pretty cool, like the wrap handle and bumper spikes

I have to admit that it does worry me. I have my doubts that we will be able to keep these things going for as long as we do the 'old school' saws.

 

Only time will tell.

I don't see why not, it'll just cost more on electronic parts surely? bet the m-tronic and auto tune systems cost a bit to replace.

I just got a stihl pamphlet from my local dealer and every pro saw in the line up is m-tronic, seems to be the way things are going. I think that it will be the end of home repairs.

 

Just look at the threads on here, how many 066, 088's are still running? Lots, I doubt we will see the same in 10-15 years with 661's or 261's still in service.

not all of them actually, I just got the 461 rather than the 441 mostly to avoid m-tronic, the 201 also isn't m-tronic, and the 880 isn't yet...

yeah I'll give it a go

cool not had a 25" before, but the 18" on that 280 is pretty old got through a good few chains on it, is the 361 strong enough to run the 25" standard or ported only? wouldn't like to run anything bigger than the 18" on the 280..

won't upload multiple photos from iPhone for some reason

started on a fairly large ash, only got the branches so far though so will do a video cutting some cookies on the main trunk when I get it out, great saw, great looking too

haha I have no idea, I think he wants to show and talk to the rep about it on their next visit.

and yeah great dealer, pleasure to do business with.

I'll try might be awhile till I get the biggest one out, which would make the best video as it's probably 25-30" at the base so a full bar length, they're all fallen at the bottom of a steep bank over a river so a bit of work getting them out!

yeah it's the same bar ran the 25 great hadn't done a lot with it though I'll let you know tomorrow got some fairly large ash trees to cut up, here's a shot of the cylinder on the new one for comparison, this one is much smoother doesn't look like it's been attacked with a drill to clean off rough edges and doesn't look like scale is hoping to start flaking off haha...

25" I'll take a photo tomorrow gunna get a sugihara 20" for it at some point too

picked up the new saw today, well pleased can't wait to give it a go tomorrow!

those do look rather nice! love the one on the right in the photo up from the bottom

yeah excellent service from the dealer!! couldn't ask for better! stihl Germany have got back to me from a message I sent them on Facebook asking for details, perhaps they'll sort it with the dealer, to be honest it isn't down to me to deal with stihl, that is what the dealers are there for, so he is very welcome to go after them about it, and I have sent them an email saying how good he has been and how bad they have been.. so we'll see what they have to say for them selves

the dealer has been excellent and is getting me a new one in stihl however annoy me with their attitude.. they are still not giving a new one, the dealer is having to sort it out.. not good.

I think you're bothering because sometimes it's more about whether something -can- be done, rather than whether doing it makes any sense:001_smile:

 

I agree a higher alloy tool steel would be the way to go. O1 is carbon/tungsten/chromium/manganese steel. I think I would go for something with molybdenum and vanadium additions for toughness. Quite expensive per billet though....

 

Alec

O1 is pretty basic steel, but it can do most things and takes an edge easily, I like it and it's also very similar (or so I'm told) to the steel gransfors use for their axes, though I believe there steel is specially made for them.

by the way go read the page on gransfors under production, about heat treating ect, I emailed them about it but they haven't put it right...

yeah all true, though with differential heat treat ect a stock removal axe could still be a very good tool, also before you get the steel it will have been hot rolled, making it stronger in the same way as hand forging, O1 is used for making a lot of tooling for metal work, fly press dies, gillotene blades ect if it can stand up to being slammed in to metal I'm sure it can manage wood

 

gransfors also add a carbon steel edge into a much softer body on some of their more expensive axes, the normal ones are just forged from a single piece of steel though.

dunno why I'm bothering as I said it'd be pointless and overly expensive/time consuming.. haha but still it's doable if you were that way inclined, IMO.

They weren't actually cast - the blades were forged from cast steel. Steel was originally made by diffusing carbon into iron (the purer the better, hence Swedish iron was particularly popular due to the purity of the ore). Crucible steel was invented in the late 1700s which made it much cheaper but still too expensive to be used for whole tools - this is the era when most tools were forged in iron with a steel insert fire welded in to form the cutting edge.

 

The open hearth and Bessemer processes of the late 19th century made steel cheap enough to use for whole tools. This was when 'cast steel' starts appearing on them, to indicate that they were made in the new modern material. The billet was still forged to shape though.

 

In terms of strength - yes a machined head would hold up, but it won't be as good. There are several things which happen when you forge - the grains are usually decreased in size and they end up aligned with the direction in which the steel is drawn. Another effect though is that the 'impurities', along with lattice defects in the crystal structure, tend to get drawn to the grain boundaries. The removal of lattice defects gives improved resistance to failure under impact, so more important for axes than for knives. The 'impurities' are often precipitates of deliberate additions which form intermetallic compounds which are harder. This means you have the very hard component of the structure, backed by the softer, stronger grains. The net effect is a steel which is easier to sharpen but holds its edge better - coincidentally exactly the same effect as was being aimed for in the original fire welded tools with a thin layer of steel welded to softer iron (which is how the Japanese still do it).

 

I have even managed to avoid the words martensite, pearlite and bainite:001_smile:

 

Returning to the original thread, I like my Gransfors axes.

 

Alec

yeah all true, though with differential heat treat ect a stock removal axe could still be a very good tool, also before you get the steel it will have been hot rolled, making it stronger in the same way as hand forging, O1 is used for making a lot of tooling for metal work, fly press dies, gillotene blades ect if it can stand up to being slammed in to metal I'm sure it can manage wood

gransfors also add a carbon steel edge into a much softer body on some of their more expensive axes, the normal ones are just forged from a single piece of steel though.

Funnily enough, no. The process of forging causes grain refinement and alignment. You just wouldn't get the same microstructure by machining from a billet.

 

In addition to the technical considerations, it isn't that cost-effective. Consider the shape of rectangular section billet you would need to start with and think about how much weight that is. The scrap is of negligible value so you are wasting that. You would also get through a lot of tool wear to machine it out. You would also have all the heat-treatment costs to get the hardening and tempering, which pretty much offsets the energy costs in forging. In the end it's cheaper just to forge it.

 

There is a smith I know who I spent a week with who is brilliant at forging tools. He particularly specialises in hammers. I first ran across him when I needed a pair of shearing hammers (used for a particular job in wooden boatbuilding). He made them to a drawing, forging by eye and measuring to dimension and supplied them (complete with handles) at £25 each. I think you would struggle to match this by machining them.

 

Alec

True in a way, but also it's is totally posable to make an axe that is strong enough by stock removal, however it would cost more than forging it as you say, making the 3d model ect and the expensive machinery needed to do it make it impractical, especially seeing as if you wanted more than 1 or 2 you may as well drop forge as most cheap axe makers do anyway, elwell's big 7lb felling axes were actually cast steel, and those are fine, in fact they are quite sort after, and a machined steel head would be be stronger than those if you use the right steel, something like O1 would be fine.

almost all knives these days are made by stock removal, I do both stock removal and forged myself, knives like the ray mears woodlore by alan wood are stock removal, so no forging but very good strong blades

the main reason you wouldn't make a stock removal axe is the amount of stock that would require removing

I'm planning to have ago at making some axes before long, Hand forged of course I've done a small hammer as practice, came out fairly well if i do say so myself

All this sharp enough to shave with is nonsense; makes no difference sharpening it to that degree only makes it go blunt quicker

a well sharpened blade will usually shave the main thing is to not have a burr which is the easy way to get something to shave, but if you sharpen properly with a very fine stone 6000+ grit you should beable to get a very sharp and durable edge, but it won't feel as sharp to the touch as a blade with a burr.

I don't think it's been abused by a bench or angle grinder. It came to me as a rusty discarded tool. No signs of grinding. I cleaned it using a battery charger and washing soda. It will take a passable edge but it will not shave my arm even after leather stropping.

any high quality old axe should get very sharp, another thing people do that messes up the hardness is burning an old handle out.. so could be something like that.

my fist axe was a kent pattern and it always took a good edge and good edge retention too it was really rusty when I was given it and the name had rusted off but by the shape and what is left of the makers stamp I'd say it was a gilpin chip chop.

They are a good shape and thin enough. I have a Whitehouse one but it won't take a good enough edge.

hmmm could the edge have been messed up by some one in the past? for example using a bench grinder to "sharpen" and over heating it?

kent pattern axes are very good for hedge laying and that type of work, thin blade and quite wide, very good if you are using a billhook but some stuff is too big

I use a number of gransfors axes really like them, been using the large splitting axe quite abit lately