ROG.

your chipper needs to have a plate it is not legal to run on the road without the chipper having a plate stating weight and identity

Are you 100% certain of that because a home made trailer does not need either to be legal on the road ?

I' m afraid that I dont know the answer to any of those questions..

The chipper has no plate...nor does the transit..

The weights for the transit will be on the V5 form, in the handbook or on a plate attached to the vehicle

If the chipper does not have a plate then what are the tyre load ratings ?

Without this info your question cannot be answered

Right...so can a transit tow a chipper of 2000 kg legally then...?

Give me this info and I'll tell you for certain

Licence B or B+E ?

Transit

Unladen weight ?

GVW ?

GTW ?

Towing capacity ? - not usually one for a transit

Chipper

Is that 2000 kg the actual and/or plated MAM weight ?

Providing it is all secure then its perfectly safe and legal

Think about the LGV wagon and drag set up where the drag/trailer uses an A frame

A set up like that is great fun to reverse because it has two pivot points so ends up being reversed as a rigid would be !!

Although I do not mind answering PMs on towing issues it would be to everyones benefit to have the Q&As in the open for two main reasons

1 - I am not infallible so others can correct any unintentional mess ups or answer aspects to which I have no knowledge

2 - other members might want to ask the same thing and seeing it already answered will same them the trouble

Once you start looking at our day to day activities in detail it starts getting a bit murky.

Yes it does which is why an overall definitive cannot be given

Each case must be determined on its own merits

Some cases are straight forward and an answer can be given now but as you say, others have so many other little bits which need considering and seem to fall in areas of the legislation which need defining

A little more on GTW, GVW & MAM on a combination set up

As the GTW, GVW & MAM weight rules are exactly the same for LGVs as they are for B category vehicles then this might help to understand the using of the GTW

3 axle LGV rigid GVW 26000 and GTW of 44000

3 axle Drawbar trailer MAM 25000

The rigid weighs 10000 unladen

The Drawbar trailer weighs 8000 unladen

the driver has a 26000 load to distribute between the two but due to the nature of the load it means that only 10000 can go onto the vehicle

After loading the vehicle now weighs 20000 and the trailer weighs 24000

All perfectly legal but as the vehicle nows weighs less than the trailer more driving care is needed but that is not too much of a problem as the designers have accounted for that - if the designers thought it was unsafe they would impose a maximum towing capacity (actual weight) for the vehicle

That is why these days we find many 4x4s with a towing capacity well over the maximum vehicle GVW - they are designed for it

Very comprehensive thanks.

 

I have decided to do my DCPC, for various reasons.

 

In your example of a tree surgeon claiming exemption, does removing arisings from site really come under "tools and materials necessary for your work"?

 

The DCPC isnt the only time that exemption comes up, and I have always wondered if it would stand up to scrutiny. Wood chip and logs, whether you class that as waste or a valuable by product, doesnt really fit the category of materials needed, and certainly not tools......

Perhaps another exempt example might help -

Builder load up his 10 tonne truck at the yard with bricks etc

He goes to the site where he uses the material he loaded in the truck

He loads rubble from the site and drives back to the yard where he offloads it

So far he is exempt dcpc

Now he decides to load up all the rubble and take it to a landfill site

He now requires dcpc

There could be an allowed exemption if that landfill run was done say once a month and the distance was short but that would need a call to the DSA driver cpc hotline 0191 201 8112 to find out and then I would insist on the answer in writing if it was deemed exempt

Operator CPC is not really my bag but from what I heard the new rules introduced last year are causing some confusion

No seperate national & international operator cpc now - its all in one

The 1020 kgs unladen trailer rule is now different for full and restricted O licences

If that is right then they sure like to mess around with things so as to confuse everyone!!

so if i drive my 6t truck to a job & do tree work all day then drive it bk to the yr do i need this dcpc or not ??

NO

But if anything was done such as deliveries to customers then it would be needed

As previous post 35 hrs training on an accreditted course before 2014 but you could do adr course which also counts a big chunk towards it.

It can but only if the ADR course is also driver cpc approved

21 hours for the basic 3.5 day course

Another 7 hours for the tanks module but not many dcpc/adr providers have that

You cant borrow the payload off of the iveco. The iveco is classed as 3.5 ton reguardless of payload so if the GTW is 6000kg & GVW is 3500kg the towing weight is 2500kg. If the trailer were to weigh 1000kg that leaves 1500kg payload on the trailer reguardless of whether the iveco is loaded or not

Unless a maximum towing capacity has been listed then the GTW can be utilised as the driver sees fit as long as the vehicle GVW and the trailer MAM are not exceeded

Example:- no towing capacity listed

Vehicle

GVW = 3500

GTW = 6000

Trailer

MAM = 3500

When loaded these actual weights would be legal if weighed on a weighbridge

Vehicle 3500 + trailer 2500

Vehicle 3000 + trailer 3000

vehicle 2500 + trailer 3500 - not the best idea this one but legal

TACHO RULES

If anyone has any queries on the EU or domestic driver regulations please feel free to ask.

As the rules are so many then here they are in downloadable PDF forms

EU REGS

NEW VOSA GUIDE GV262-03

Hope I can be of help

DRIVER CPC (DCPC) info for those that may need it

It seems some on here may need the newish (Sept 2009) driver cpc to continue driving LGVs commercially after 09/09/2014 so I thought you might like to know the rules.

The driving licence and the DCPC are totally separate issues so not having the DCPC does not mean a loss of the licence – it means that the licence cannot be used to drive LGVs commercially.

The Operator CPC and the Driver CPC are separate issues and one cannot be used towards the other unless those doing an Operator CPC course have that course DCPC approved for X amount of DCPC hours.

The DCPC will be required for almost every commercial LGV driver (drivers of vehicles over 3.5 tonnes GVW) but there are some exceptions.

Vehicles under 3.5 tonnes using a trailer which takes them over 3.5 tonnes combined weight do not come under DCPC but may come under EU tacho regs and/or ‘O’ licence regs.

When this was first introduced I made an in depth study into all aspects of it from the INITIAL DCPC to the PERIODIC DCPC.

The INITIAL DCPC is for those who want to drive LGVs commercially and did not have any LGV entitlement on their licence on 10/09/2009.

Pre 1997 car licence holders did have LGV C1 so are exempt from taking the INITIAL DCPC.

I will not expand further on this unless specifically asked to.

The PERIODIC DCPC is the one which will affect the majority for the whole of their commercial LGV driving careers because it is an ongoing requirement.

After 09/09/2014 every commercial LGV driver will be required by LAW to carry a DQC (driver cpc card) at all times when driving LGVs commercially unless they fit into an exemption.

Until 09/09/2014 those who had any LGV category on 10/09/2009 will have acquired/grandfather rights and also have a ‘GHOST’ DQC (driver cpc card)

The 35 hours is not 7 hours per year in the UK but is 35 hours within a 5 year period.

When all 35 hours are completed AT ANY TIME during the 5 years the driver gets a new DQC (driver cpc card) dated 5 years from the end of the current one or in the case of those with acquired/grandfather rights it will be 5 years from 09/09/2014 making an expiry date of 09/09/2019.

There are no tests or exams to be passed – each course just requires the attendance of the driver along with their driving licence.

The legal responsibility to get the 35 hours of DCPC falls on the driver and not the employer which is why so many LGV (and PCV) drivers are opposed to this.

The DCPC cannot be scrapped by the UK Govt as it is EU law so would require many EU states to make changes but in saying that, the UK Govt do have flexibility as to HOW it is implemented in the UK.

The 35 hours are usually done in blocks of 7 hours but can be split into 3.5 hours blocks as long as 2 X 3.5 hours blocks are done within a 24 hour period.

That 24 hour period is often relaxed a little and allowed to be over 2 days.

A simple exemption from DCPC could be this:-

A driver goes to the job, spends all day cutting down trees, loads them and then drives back to a place where they offload them.

The driver has only used the LGV for a very short part of the shift as a tool to move the wood so that does not make driving the main part of their job.

If that same driver was to then make a short distance delivery to a customer then they would not be exempt as that would be delivering goods.

The DSA set up (a Quango?) called JAUPT to oversee the PERIODIC (not initial) DCPC.

Virtually anyone can set up as a DCPC provider but it means paying JAUPT money to be one (renewed every 5 years) and for each approved course (renewed every year).

An approved DCPC trainer must work for an approved DCPC provider so the hours done by drivers can be counted and uploaded to the DVLA database.

A certificate of attendance should also be provided by the provider.

A driver may check on what DCPC hours are already on the DVLA database

Send an e-mail to [email protected] or call 0191 201 8112 (DSA DCPC hotline)

Include;

A request for a statement of periodic training to be posted to your home address

Name

Date of Birth

Driver licence number

Home address

Unless a DCPC approved course is also under the remit of another approving body (ADR by SQA for example) then, providing it fits in with the general JAUPT criteria, it will be approved but the accuracy of the contents of that course will not be checked upon!

Any person can be a DCPC trainer with something as simple as a letter from a current or former employer stating that they are competent in subject matter.

There are literally hundreds of DCPC courses to choose from so if a provider states they have 5 X 7 hours modules that is not what is required. A driver can take the same 7 hour course 5 times to gain 35 hours.

About 50% of drivers are getting the DCPC done in-house by their employers but for the rest it means they have to find courses and cough up the dough themselves.

Many of those that must pay themselves are simply opting for the cheapest no matter what that course is and who can blame them.

Time spent on a DCPC course cannot be counted as daily or weekly rest for the EU driver regulations because it is not a voluntary set of training hours. It must be recorded as ‘other work’

There are a few officials getting mixed up over this but the law is clear on this issue even though it is implied and not stated – typical law makers not putting things into plain language!

Surprisingly, perhaps not as this is an EU thing, driving is not a compulsory part of the DCPC although there are some very expensive courses which do have a driving element such as the SAFED course

The introduction of the DCPC resulted in a change in the law for LGV driver licence ages. ALL LGV categories are now at age 18.

I think that has covered all the relevant aspects of the DCPC but feel free to ask me anything I have not covered or made clear.

If anyone wishes me to determine whether they are legal or not then please inform me of the following in kgs:-

1 - Licence - B or B+E

2 - Unladen/empty/kerb weight of the towing vehicle

3 - GVW of the towing vehicle

4 - Towing capacity of the towing vehicle

5 - GTW if listed

6 - Plated MAM of the trailer or if no plate then the load rating + number of tyres

7 - Unladen/empty weight of the trailer

Hi all, my first post and the first of three, hopefully useful, ones

Trailer towing:- B and B+E licence rules explained

I have extensive knowledge on this issue and already have a trailer towing clinic HERE

Trailer MAM means the maximum weight the trailer can be when fully loaded (weight of empty trailer plus weight of load)

Trailers over 3500 kgs plated MAM weight come under different rules which is why all the trailers towed by B class vehicles , those of 3.5 tonnes and under, are not plated at more than 3500 kgs or 3.5 tonnes MAM

Trailers without plates use the total of the TYRE LOAD RATINGS to determine the MAM.

A rating of 66 on 4 tyres would give a MAM of 1200 kgs.

Vehicles in the B licence category will have the following information on a plate in the vehicle, in the handbook or on the V5 form.

Information can also be found on many internet vehicle specification sites.

Unladen or Kerb weight - although there is a slight difference in the two it is not that much

GVW - the max weight the vehicle can weigh when fully loaded

GTW - the max weight the vehicle and trailer can ACTUALLY weigh when added together. This does not refer to the total of the vehicle GWV and trailer MAM weights.

Towing capacity - this is the ACTUAL weight that can be towed by the vehicle - it does not mean the trailer MAM weight.

None of the above weights must be exceeded

Some vehicles have a GVW, a towing capacity and a GTW. In such a case the GTW takes priority over the GVW and towing capacity when added together

FOR B+E LICENCES

Where a towing capacity is listed then this would be a legal example:-

CAR has GVW of 2000 and a towing capacity of 1800

TRAILER has a MAM of 3500 and an unladen weight of 1000

The trailer can be loaded with a maximum weight of 800

Where there is not a towing capacity listed then the GTW is used

GTW minus the GVW does not give the towing capacity unless the vehicle is fully laden

EXAMPLE: -

VAN has GVW of 3500 and GTW of 6000

TRAILER has MAM of 3500

The van and trailer can weigh 3000 each and be legal

FOR B LICENCES

The Gov sites are not that good at explaining this so I have managed to find a simple way of determining whether a driver can tow something on a B only licence -

To tow over 750 kgs with a B licence you need to say NO to the following:-

Is the plated MAM of the trailer more than the UNLADEN/KERB/EMPTY weight of the towing vehicle?

Does the GVW of the towing vehicle plus the plated MAM of the trailer add up to more than 3500 kgs?

Is the ACTUAL weight of the empty trailer and its load more than the listed towing capacity?

Example of legally towing over 750 kgs with a B licence - made up figures but not that far from what can be found....

Towing vehicle -

Unladen/empty/kerb = 1500

GVW = 2000

Towing capacity = 1800

Trailer -

Unladen/empty = 800

MAM = 1500 (Perhaps originally a 2000 MAM but downplated by manufacturer so it conforms to B licence towing)

Load trailer with 700 max

Reasons it is legal for towing on a B licence -

The 1500 MAM of the trailer is not more than the 1500 unladen/empty weight of the towing vehicle

The 2000 GVW of the towing vehicle plus the 1500 MAM of the trailer is not more than 3500

The towing capacity/actual weight being towed does not exceed 1800

SUPERVISING A B+E LEARNER

In April 2010 new rules were introduced for those supervising certain learner drivers but they only affected those supervising VOCATIONAL categories such as C1 C1+E D1 & D1+E where the supervising driver had those categories given to them for free when they passed a pre 1997 car test.

They do not affect those with a pre 1997 B+E licence who wish to supervise a B+E learner.

The usual rules apply when a learner is driving -

The supervising driver must be aged over 21

The supervising driver must have held a B+E licence for at least 3 years

L plates must be fitted to the front of the vehicle and the rear of the trailer

Correct insurance for a B+E learner

Caravan weights work on a slightly different system as they take into account the recommended (not legal) 85% towing rule

I hope this helps those who are unsure of the rules