dadio

I hope you all are laughing as hard as I AM... Good one Dean.. that is hilarious! So back to the technique... How many here have tried vertical cuts (with or without the plunge) on hung trees?

Do you really think that Axmen is anything but a scripted show that purposely creates drama by making up all kinds of imaginery problems? How bout I don't judge the English on their guilability based on this one post, and you don't judge American fallers based on one fabricated TV show?

What specifically makes it unsafe? I recently found out that the united states forest service (USFS) trains in the use of a similar vertical cut, where the faller must stand and cut next to the hung tree. Maybe you should write them a letter! The disclaimer is so that idiots, that have no clue how to run a chainsaw, don't take a look at this cut and try it. You probably shouldn't either

I love this post! Here a self admitted hobbyist is at least trying to make an effort to discuss the pros/cons, safety issues etc of the technique. How much better is that than a seasoned pro calling it "crap"? There is no way that the saw will get snatched here, the falling piece is on one side only of the bar. As far as the narrow miss on the kickback zone, that is quite correct.. this was done purposefully to keep as much clearance as possible from the falling butt. A saw is just an extension of the body for any experienced faller. He knows where the kickback zone of the bar is the way you know where the end of your hand is. So often times when an expert does something that looks close, the untrained eye thinks it looks dangerous, whereas it is really a sign of mastery.

This was not a premature break/drop, nor was it unanticipated. When the tree is still on the root plate like that, when it goes, it goes... and it goes fast. I had no intention of making a third cut on that tree, though I would have without hesitation if needed. The third cut is only needed when the top strap is unintentionally left too thick and the tree doesn't drop. Then you have to cut the top strap to release, which puts the faller a little close to the falling butt. Still far enough to be safe, just a little less comfortable. The below video shows three large windblwon/hung trees I did in late June. the first two were tripped from the air, the first had concrete in the base to about 10', where the trunk was just hanging on by splinters. the second was tripped from the air becasue it was easier to do, while I was up there anyhow. The third shows a plunged vertical snap cut (at 6:50) where the top strap held and had to be released with a thrid cut up high. I did not mean to do that. I had hoped that the tree would drop on the second cut (on the bottom strap). You could intentionally leave the top strap thick wnough to hold, then put a pull line/winch just above the cut and trigger the fall remotely if needed. I wouldn't do that as protection from the falling butt, becasue it is not needed. However that might become useful when dealing with hazards from falling overhead debris. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5bt6NJEVAI]YouTube - widowmakers 2010.mov[/ame]

The tensions and compressions have no effect on the movement of the butt after release. Is that sush a hard concept to grasp? They will effect the bar getting pinched, which is again the benefit of the plunge cut, in that it prevents the bar from getting pinched no matter what hte tension and compression forces are doing. That said : Tip vs butt heavy, the angle of lean, and the forces exerted by the push or pull of the root plate are three factors that effect tension/compression in the wood. Just becasue you haven't figured them out does not make them unpredictable. Its all physics, and as such undenaibly predictable.

Your name calling does nothing to further the conversation. Those that have nothing intelligent to say must resort to mud slinging. Its an old political trick. When you don't have the truth on your side, just slander the one who does and the gullible people will fall for it.

None of those things mentioned above make a bit of difference to the movement of the butt after seperation when using the cut shown on the video, with the ecxeptoin of grade, which could casue the piece to move downhill, only after it touches ground. Were you using this technique back in the 90s? NO of course not. So the effects you are talking about are the effects on a different cut, which I have experienced. I started using just the vertical snap cut ,without the plunge in the 80s (if it matters), mostly taking trees off houses after hurrucanes. . Made that cut several hundred times over a 3 month period in 1989. I've shown it on video many times and it always works the same. The angle of lean as well as pessure exerted from the push or pull of the root plate will effect the tension/compression areas in the wood, however the plunge and snap make those effects irrelevant. That is the beauty of this cut.

So then since this is not one of the scenarios you cited, would you agree that there is no chance of the tree coming back towards the faller (me) in the scenario of this video? ps.. thank you Darren.. I agree nothing wrong with a bit of controversy and the ensuing dialogue

LOVE IT.. so true! I have made plenty...

Not at all... its like bucking a downed tree. You don't even have to think about which way to make the cut, you've done it so many times, you just know where the compression and tension will be. Its all pure physics. Not at all unpredictable. It becomes second nature. What makes a hung tree any different? The forces involved may be slightly more complex, but it is all still pure physics.. Nothing unpredictable about it. If you understand the forces and have had the experience to see them in action, then it becomesl very predictable.

That is wrong.. if the pieces is still attached to the rootplate, as the rootplate drops back into the hole, the but will follow. BUT that is extremely rare, as the rootplate will not drop until after separation in most cases. The snap cut also assures the faller of a clean separation. Any effect of back pressure from a bending adjacent tree will not be enough to overcome the force of gravity pulling straight down on the butt. The butt actually moves slightly in towards the direction where the top is hung (not back), thus the hung tree gets straighter with every cut. If the hung tree is heavy enough to bend the adjacent tree significantly, then the weight of the hung tree, falling straight down with gravity, will overcome any slight back push from a bending tree. Especially since the the amount of weight taken off the bending tree from a low cut on the hung tree is minimal. Once again, as long as the hung tree is not tip heavy, there will be no back movement of the butt towards the faller.

Unpredictable to the inexperienced. This is all physics.. its scientific. there are a lot of variables. So many it is often hard to explain them articulately. However when you understand the variables and how they all interact, then it becomes very predictable. The more you do it, and the better you observe, the faster you learn. The first time I ever saw a hurricane slam into a residential neighborhood with big trees, it dropped my jaw. Total devastation.. trees down everywhere, sometimes four or more big trees on a house.. that was before we were using cranes.

That's right.. the only tine the butt is not going to drop straight down, is when the pieces is tip heavy. Rare to see that when hung in another tree unless the trunk catches a low fork in a nearby tree. Rare in cases of storm damage, even less likely in cases of tree falling gone wrong. More often seen in large storm damaged tree on houses, as when a 100+' tree blows onto a house and there is 50+' of top hanging over the peak of the roof. On houses the butt will most often not go up, it will come back and down (unless a branch gets caught on the peak of the roof and won't allow the tree to drop). So the arrow C pointing up is a force not a movement. This upward force will be overcome by the force of gravity pulling the whole tree down , leaving a resulting movement of down and back. That is the only time you need to worry about the butt coming back. You are safe from the falling butt, so as long as you are standing behind the cut, and the tree isn't tip heavy. So escaping from the butt is not needed.. escape time comes into play after the butt drops, from either falling debris or once the tree gets straight and the whole top lets go and falls, which is where most people get killed tripping widow makers. That can get very dicey and may best be done with a pull line of sorts.. NOT and issue on this particular fall.

Will someone please answer this question: Waht is the only scenario where the butt will not drop straight down when a widow maker is tripped with a vertical snap cut, as shown in this vid? ps. the movement of the stump after release will not efect the movement of the butt as it drops.

My child is a genius.. literally off the charts.. he broke the school districts all time record in reading last year.. We'd like to get him in a better school, but there are none available in his area.. mioght be a good metaphor...

Actually check that.. Gulph hills oak does not show that cut.. it is on "falling compilation 2"

actually I stated that as long as it is still attached to the stump, there will be very little difference in the speed of the release. The main benefit of the plunge is preventing the bar from pinching in the cut, though there are other benefits as well. Again, there was an insert shot of a large ash leaning trunk, breaking and dropping slowly, and well after I stepped away from the cut, which showed the secondary benefit, as I mentioned in the tape.. How many times do I have to explain this? You guys are beginning to sound like the Americans!

Appreciate the sentiment.. I have shown a similar cut in several other videos.. including another one called "widowmakers" and one called "gulph hills oaks". and the last tree in the first falling compilation (1), might have been called "compilation falling".. youtube search any of those titles w/ "murphy4trees"...

What can I say to this statement... This is the kind of rediculous statement that I found so frustrating in dealing with the Americans.. Clueless!!!

Doug, Are there any standards in the UK that apply to tripping a hung tree? If people do it, then there is a reason why they do it.. If it is an unsafe practice there must be reasons for that.. the ones you state below do not make sense to me. The following are responses to your comments qupted below: Controlling the top is often required when taking a tree of a house. not applicable in forrestry.. also note, that I can often set up and install a lowering line with throw line, never leaving the ground. Yes there is control of the falling piece in as much as we control anything.. the butt will fall straight down as I've said already, in all situations except one. That is enough "control" to stay safe. To stand 3 feet away is safe, no matter how it looks to your eye. Again let me say, the need for escape is not from the falling butt. The need for escape comes into play when the there is a risk of the top falling or a broken limb fallling overhead. That comes into play mostly as the piece gets straight. The species will effect the way the top strap holds, but will have no effect on the falling direction of the butt. No, this fall was on completely flat ground. I agree with the first part of the floowing statement "The tree which is causing the hang has a massive effect on what happens to the hung stem. This is infinately variable". If the trees are limb-locked, you have to cut them free, before using this cut. However that is not infitely variable. they are either limb locked or not. also this technique is often used for taking trees off houses.

I have no idea what you are talking about!!!! That root plate was still firmly attached to the ground....... :confused1:

PLEASE understand that this is all done ad lib, totally unsripted. I AM there to get a tree job done and there is very little time and energy put into taping. So I make an effort to explain clearly all the thinking and details of the techniques that go into getting the job done, which works well sometimes, on simple jobs. The more complicated a technique, the greater the chance that something (often many things) will go unmentioned or only partially explained. There is a lot of thinking that goes into this work.. hard to explain it all, especially ad libbing, which is the only way to make these vidoes on a low low budget. That is why there is so little of this stuff presently available. Where are the training tapes for complex falling, rigging and cutting techniques.. THEY DON'T EXIST!! becasue they are cost prohibitive. That said, I was very pleased with this particlar presentation and after reading the below quote, its clear to me that there has been a big miscommunication. I don't understand how you could have misinterprettd my statements, as you have. I have repsonded to your statements directly within the quote below. You said: watched the vid about 3 times now, at no point do you mention the root plate as a consideration when choosing the technique. repsonse: CHECK THAT A FOURTH time .. at 2:08 I saysomething to the effect that the amount of holding wood left up top has to be smaller when the tree is still attached to the stump, than after the first cut, when the butt is stuck in the ground. then again at 3:32, I say something to the effect that the top strap will not slow the fall down much when the tree is still on the stump, but after the tree is off the stump, the fall will often be very slow and allow the faller to stand well clear before the piece splits and drops. This is where the insert video of the large ash splitting and falling after the faller has exitted. You said: you do however tell us about 6 times throughout the video how the technique allows you to make an escape so that you are nowhere near the trunk as it drops, then after the abysmal final and frantic cut at 4.52 that nearly leaves you as a double leg amputee you state at 5.18 in classic historical revisionism style that you "didn't need to escape" response: At 4:10 , after the plunge is finished and before the piece drops, I say, "now I can just cut the bottom strap and get out of here, (motioning my body towards an escape route), but in this situation I can just stand here and let it fall because she's just gonna hit the ground and fall the way she's leaning" That quote is nearly word for word. You said: the video is full of inconsistencies, contradiction and above all the technique you showed did not allow you to make any form of escape whatsoever, in fact if anything it actually put you in more danger as you had to position your body nearer the trunk to make the final undercut. response: So the point here is that in this situation, I don't need to escape because the tip will drop harmlessly away from me, because the top was already brushed out. That is what I said, and exactly what happened. There is no need to escape from the butt, as it will always drop straight down in all situations and species, except one!!! So standing close to the butt may look dangerous , but it is safeto stand nearby, just don't stand under it. I referred to the real danger coming after several cuts have been made and the piece is beginning to get straight, and the faller is required to stand under the canopy, and where the top can potentially fall in any direction. That is when escape is needed and when this cut gives the faller an advantage. SO here's a question for you all... What is the one situation where the butt will not drop straight down? Anyone know?

Yes I know and I did mention that specifically. When the trunk is attached to the root, there is very little (if any) additional time to the release. THIS WAS stated in the video. If you leave too much holding wood up top, the piece can be released by cutting the strap from the top down, which will again alllow the faller to stand to the side, out of harms way, though this requires reachin up quite a bit higher and thus put the faller a little closer to the drop zone. I have used this technique 100+ times and there is only one rare situation where the trunk will move anything but straight down. I have found it perfectly safe stand slightly to the side and behind the cut. May look and feel scary, but it is safe. If I need to control the top, I will set a lowering line in an overhead lowering point, tied off high on the work (when possible) and then allow the pendulum effect to pull the work off the roof (or standing tree) as it comes down in steps. For those that believe this method is dangerous or has resulted in death/injury, please be more specific in where the actual danger lies. My mind is open here.. also I'd like to see a video of someone using a face and wedges on a 30"+ DBH widowmaker. I honestly have never seen it done, as I've been using vertical cuts of some kind since 1989. Winches are nice, but not always able to be used in arboriculture.