New TPOs within an existing Area TPO.

[Gary Prentice]

Is it normal, maybe in an attempt to update an old area TPO, to issue new individual TPO 's.

 

The original area has not been invoked, as far as I can ascertain. The area TPO is also situated within a much larger CA.

 

I've received decision notices/responses to a S211 notice (I wasn't made aware of the area TPO ) in the form of an acceptance (211 notice), a refusal to fell - as a tree works app, a consent for alternative pruning (TW Decision notice) and a new Individual TPO.

 

Sorry if this question appears confusing and complicated, but the situation actually is. I have a screen shot off of the planning departments own system clearly showing the area TPO. Yet this seems to be being ignored in their decisions and responses. I've also been given the TPO number and atm assume it hasn't been invoked.

 

I can't now go to this very large site and say, with any certainty whether a tree is protected by a TPO or CA status.

[Gary Prentice]

Anyone?

[Liz Phillips]

If the trees are in a CA, all trees above 7.5cm dbh are protected and require an S211 notification to be given to the LA before work is carried out. If the LA does not wish to grant consent, they have to TPO the tree.

 

Area Orders only cover the trees that were present when the order was created. If the order is 30 years old, only trees present at that time are covered - which is open to interpretation as to how old any of the trees are. Usually an area order does not specify the number of trees protected.

 

Possibly the trees that you have applied to carry out work to are not covered by the original area order. If they are a treeworks application should be submitted. If they aren't already covered then the LA are correct to issue a new TPO in response to a S211 notice.

 

Ideally, to avoid confusion the Area Order should be revoked, any trees above 7.5cm dbh will be covered by the CA anyway.

[Adam M]

I can't get my head around the question. Could you visit the council and ask to inspect any TPO's affecting the site?

 

I'm guessing that the area tpo is old and likely not fit for purpose and rather than review it in its entirety, they are relying upon CA notices to flag up potentially non-tpo trees and then taking a piecemeal approach to protecting individual trees as they come in.

[Gary Prentice]

Yes. It's usually done as part of a TPO review. Or maybe at a time when clarity as to which trees are actually protected is required.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by invoked.

 

That is confusing. If there was a TPO in place the LPA should have asked you to apply for consent under the TPO rather than acknowledge your S211.

 

The LPA cannot refuse your S211.

 

Have you made an application to work on a TPO'd tree. If not they can't issue a decision refusing the work, or one with conditions consenting to work.

 

The LPA can't condition the S211.

 

The LPA can't condition a TPO consent along the lines you have indicated, i.e. from felling to pruning even if you have applied for works to a TPO tree.

 

If the LPA didn't like your S211 they can make a TPO. This would be better done as something other than an Area TPO. Which is what they have done. You would then need to apply for consent under the new TPO for any works you wish to do, and appeal any refusal.

 

If the Council puts this stuff on line is there a link so we can have a look to get a clearer picture.

 

Ed

 

If the trees are in a CA, all trees above 7.5cm dbh are protected and require an S211 notification to be given to the LA before work is carried out. If the LA does not wish to grant consent, they have to TPO the tree.

 

Area Orders only cover the trees that were present when the order was created. If the order is 30 years old, only trees present at that time are covered - which is open to interpretation as to how old any of the trees are. Usually an area order does not specify the number of trees protected.

 

Possibly the trees that you have applied to carry out work to are not covered by the original area order. If they are a treeworks application should be submitted. If they aren't already covered then the LA are correct to issue a new TPO in response to a S211 notice.

 

Ideally, to avoid confusion the Area Order should be revoked, any trees above 7.5cm dbh will be covered by the CA anyway.

 

I can't get my head around the question. Could you visit the council and ask to inspect any TPO's affecting the site?

 

I'm guessing that the area tpo is old and likely not fit for purpose and rather than review it in its entirety, they are relying upon CA notices to flag up potentially non-tpo trees and then taking a piecemeal approach to protecting individual trees as they come in.

 

 

 

It may be easier to start this tale from the beginning:biggrin:

 

We got an inquiry in March about a Mill complex that has been undergoing development into apartments over the last several years. Our records showed that previous searches only identified a CA.

 

I viewed the works and submitted a 211 notice in March. No planning application for building/change of use etc was submitted - so this was a straight forward 211 notice.

 

The LA NEVER acknowledge anything - 211 notices or Tree Works Apps apart from an automatic acknowledgement that they have received your email.

 

After 6-8 weeks the client emailed and asked, in the absence off any communication from the LA, could works commence. This was in May. I telephoned the planning department to check that the trees were actually within the CA but because of the size of the mill it became difficult to confirm the actual location of the trees - so I asked for a screenshot.

 

This showed an area which I confirmed, on further inquiry, to be an area TPO. This had never before been identified to us despite several searches and subsequent 211 notices. So I told the client that our original notice was wrong, it should have been a TPO app, but I expected that the LA would treat it as such. Historically they have.

 

They will also refuse an application to fell but give an alternative pruning consent - as if you'd submitted a pruning app. I know that that isn't strictly legal but it works.

 

On monday I received a response for some of the works in the 211 notice, a refusal to a tree works app for 1 tree (i didn't submit an app), a consent for pruning works to the same tree - again no TW app submitted. Oh both of these correspond to a TPO dated 2016 - which I received two days later. No mention of the 1999 area TPO at all.

 

So based on the information we had that the trees were only in a CA (as of March 2016 we may have been able to do the works in May because six weeks had elapsed. I seem to be the only person aware of the 1999 order because the planning department have continually failed to mention it despite numerous requests for information.

 

I don't want to publish it at the moment because it will identify the authority and I'm going to make some complaints. Four months to get answers is ridiculous but becoming common-place.

 

Welcome to the forum Liz, you're name feels familiar.

 

Edward, I meant revoked, not invoked

[Gary Prentice]

Oh and Adam.

 

I went to planning wednesday (a similar issue - another site) and after asking to see the file concerning a recent TPo was informed that I had to email a request, in advance, before they would show me even the TPO document.

 

 

I politely informed them that they don't know the regs themselves and as it was within working hours I wanted to see it then and there. I got my way!

 

You may be right about up-dating piece-meal, but surely some-one needs to be saying that there is an area order other-wise after six weeks trees will be felled under the CA rules? And, if there is an area order, why respond with a CA reply to they don't disagree with the notified intention?

[Liz Phillips]

Thanks for the welcome Gary. Good luck with this one

[Adam M]

Oh and Adam.

 

I went to planning wednesday (a similar issue - another site) and after asking to see the file concerning a recent TPo was informed that I had to email a request, in advance, before they would show me even the TPO document.

 

 

I politely informed them that they don't know the regs themselves and as it was within working hours I wanted to see it then and there. I got my way!

 

You may be right about up-dating piece-meal, but surely some-one needs to be saying that there is an area order other-wise after six weeks trees will be felled under the CA rules? And, if there is an area order, why respond with a CA reply to they don't disagree with the notified intention?

 

Sounds like a nightmare. Do they have a tree officer or do they rely on planners to assess tpo/ca's?

[Gary Prentice]

TO advises the planning officer about the condition, suitability for a defensible TPO etc, but is in a different department. All problems arise from the planning department.

[Jon Heuch]

Is it normal, maybe in an attempt to update an old area TPO, to issue new individual TPO 's.

 

The original area has not been invoked, as far as I can ascertain. The area TPO is also situated within a much larger CA.

 

I've received decision notices/responses to a S211 notice (I wasn't made aware of the area TPO ) in the form of an acceptance (211 notice), a refusal to fell - as a tree works app, a consent for alternative pruning (TW Decision notice) and a new Individual TPO.

 

Sorry if this question appears confusing and complicated, but the situation actually is. I have a screen shot off of the planning departments own system clearly showing the area TPO. Yet this seems to be being ignored in their decisions and responses. I've also been given the TPO number and atm assume it hasn't been invoked.

 

I can't now go to this very large site and say, with any certainty whether a tree is protected by a TPO or CA status.

 

Gary

 

You are dependent on the Council's records for saying whether there is a TPO and/or CA protection status. As things may change and new TPOs served and old ones revoked you should not rely on previous enquiries to the Council. Clearly if the Council is in the habit of non-communication on top of shambolic administration there are a number of potential flaws.

 

In such circumstances and assuming you are not in too much of a hurry and want to play safe I would just submit an application assuming there is a tree preservation order and then it will be for the Council to tell you there is not. This might not be appropriate in every case (i.e. where there is not, but the Council may serve a TPO if they knew of the work) but they may get the message if you file a lot of applications......which are very easy to generate on the planning portal.

 

If the Council don't acknowledge a s211 notification and thus don't tell you that there is a TPO in place and you start work after 6 weeks on the basis that 6 weeks have passed then you may end up in a difficult situation. If this is a situation likely to re-occur you might need to send in a formal request for information on "any TPOs covering this area" and attach a plan outlining the area......alternatively approach the Land Charges department of the Council. They are likely to charge but you should get a definitive answer, other than for the most recently served TPOs.

 

I am currently dealing with an old TPO where there is no evidence of confirmation but plenty of evidence of previous applications and refusal notices........the case gets more interesting when you consider the implications of this situation.