Black locust tree with strange problem. Can it be saved?

[jeffpas]

Hi all-

 

I have a black locust tree, at least I am pretty sure that is what it is.... two of them actually which came up volunteer along the fence about 10 years ago.

They grew pretty fast, and are now quite tall- trimmed them high above the power wires so they make kind of a canopy. All that is fine.

What is not fine, is that one of them has developed the most perplexing of problems. And it couldn't be happening in the worst spot.

 

The tree has a slight lean, and leans over the neighbors house. At least... sort of.

I decided this year that maybe I should take the tree out- so then I called a tree cutter who assured me that 1) taking out the tree would be an astounding $1200.00, and that was probably the best price in town and 2) this type of tree practically never falls over, they are very solid and not to worry about it falling over. So I decided to leave it.

 

Then something very weird happened.

 

It seems like the bark is moving away from the tree, on the front side at the base It looks normal, but you can push the bark in about an inch. If you look inside you can see the heartwood which is flat, but white and there are a lot of 'shavings' like toothpicks. I brushed them out for the pictures.

I don't see any bugs except there were some very small ants on the tree, after which I put ant poison in the area and they seem to have disappeared. There is also a large round 'root' on one side.

 

I recently asked about this on another site and someone said this is a death sentence, the tree has to come down, it has fungal rot. They said it sustained some damage years ago and the 'root' is the tree trying to grow back over it, and as it grew it pulled the bark away from the tree. However the base is very large- quite a bit larger around than its sister tree next to it (both identical in age) so it seems to be artificially wide. The heartwood as it were seems solid. Why can't the fungus be treated, if this is what it is? Or is it something else, ants, another pest, etc?

 

Thanks much for any input.

 

 

Pictures (sorry for the rotation... unless the forum fixes it)

 

http://oi59.tinypic.com/33fg4up.jpg

 

http://oi58.tinypic.com/105xycz.jpg

 

http://oi57.tinypic.com/30uqyqt.jpg

 

http://oi57.tinypic.com/1z1wfg1.jpg

 

http://oi60.tinypic.com/2u58dis.jpg

 

http://oi57.tinypic.com/258468h.jpg

 

http://oi60.tinypic.com/1yv891.jpg

Edited September 9, 2015 by jeffpas

[spandit]

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TreeTiger]

The decay appears to be localised.

Monitor the area of concern, prod around with a probe and if the decay begins to approach one third of the circumference of the trunk, consider reducing the crown or removing the tree.

Get at least three quotes before employing an arborist.

[10 Bears]

Hello Jeff,

 

Being a forum you are bound to get several opinions, but I will try to be a little more informative if I can. I have seen this exact situation several times before on the same species of tree - so I believe it is relatively a common situation.

 

Firstly, to review TreeTiger's comments. I don't agree there is decay per se - least not in a way that will effect structural stability. There is however, obviously bark necrosis ie the dying back of the bark. Yes, as suggested on 'the other forum' this could be as a result of mechanical damage eg strimmer/mower/dropping bricks on the area etc. but I don't believe this is the death knell for the tree.

 

As you can quite clearly see, there is a cambial regrowth/adventitious root that the tree is putting on in response to the damage (from the images I prefer that it is an adventitious root rather than its trying to occlude the wound - this would also match what I have seen in the field). Trees are self-optimising structures, so, if the tree is otherwise healthy and has a full photosynthetically active crown (can't see from the images), it will be able to compensate for the damage at the base for a good period of time - probably even outlasting how long you live at the property.

 

TreeTiger suggests 'probing' the area. I agree with this to a degree, but be careful. Please use a blunt object - or simply your finger, to press into what you called the heartwood to periodically check for excelloration in decay of this area. Don't use a sharp metal point as this can further damage the exposed wood and actually provide entrance points for fungal infection at a later point. Obviously the exact opposite of what you want to happen. As you say in your post though - the wood appears to be structurally solid, so it will continue to hold the tree up (in normal conditions) for a further period of time. This is combined with the fact that the tree is trying to assist itself by putting on the additional support root, so again reinforces my opinion that the tree is not near its immediate end.

 

As you have used the $$$ symbol in your post, you are possibly in the US (or Canada or Australia), so I am not in a position to comment further on your questions regarding the effects of different insects, although as a side note Black Ants ie small black common garden ants, are known to assist broadleaf trees by attacking smaller sap sucking insects eg aphids, that cause damage to leaves on trees - so perhaps killing your colony was not the best move? Pure conjecture on my part though, as I don't have enough information.

 

Regarding a fungi question - have you seen any fruiting bodies or other signs of fungal ingress? If not, I suggest waiting for your 'fungi season' to visually check for fungal fruiting bodies and attempt to make an ID. There are many guidebooks and of course the web - but you may also want to employ the services of a professional (or even post pictures on here!). Then when you are armed with further information ie is there really fungal ingress that would accelerate structural decay?, then you will be able to make a more informed decision about the tree's future. In the US, you may also be able to employ a 'Plant Health Care' specialist to treat fungi - but again, only if you know what the fungi is.

 

So, in the meantime don't rush to fell the tree as in my opinion there is little to be alarmed about. Get more information about what is going on with it, then you will be able to make a more sound decision.

 

All the best.

Edited September 10, 2015 by 10 Bears

[jeffpas]

Thanks much for the replies. I have since removed the loose bark and have additional pics which may be of use for those interested.

About 1/4 the circumference of the tree has the 'heartwood' exposed. There is definitely some fungal infection but it hasn't gotten too deep. The obvious fear is it will progress to heart rot, and/or the wound if it ever closes over- will close up leaving the fungus inside.

This would lead I assume to a by-all-appearences fine looking tree ending up with a mushy center and falling on the house one day.

Nevertheless, it appears in good health at the moment.

 

I've seen many products sold at the hardware store- fungicide even sold especially for trees- but keep reading online that it 'does no good'. It looks to me like some white rot, or wet rot. Which I understand is bad, but not as bad as dry rot.

Also someone mentioned washing with diluted bleach to kill fungus, but I don't think that would work in this case.

Any thoughts???

 

 

http://oi59.tinypic.com/11b10d4.jpg

http://oi61.tinypic.com/2v00i8o.jpg

http://oi62.tinypic.com/9krzih.jpg

http://oi60.tinypic.com/2lubg20.jpg

http://oi61.tinypic.com/1viox.jpg

http://oi60.tinypic.com/30bhiqd.jpg

Edited September 12, 2015 by jeffpas

[TreeTiger]

As 10 Bears said, you're bound to get different opinions....here's my tupenn'orth...

 

Removing the bark has revealed a larger area of exposed sapwood.

 

The white deposit you see is the mycellium of the fungi, check for fruiting bodies -brackets/toadstools in the Autumn. ID the fungus, check the implications for the tree.

 

Don't use any form of chemical control, as we don't fully understand the implications of the tree/fungi relationship.

 

Continue to monitor the exposed area for signs of decay, monitor the crown for signs of decline.

 

If crown decline or basal decay becomes significant, fell the tree.

[10 Bears]

The obvious fear is it will progress to heart rot, and/or the wound if it ever closes over- will close up leaving the fungus inside.

 

This is not a problem at all - in fact this is the preferred outcome. Trees actively compartmentalise, that is they attempt to seal fungal pathogens in a box inside their structure. This is what the tree is trying to achieve by closing over the wound.

 

This would lead I assume to a by-all-appearences fine looking tree ending up with a mushy center and falling on the house one day.

 

I don't agree, - there would likely be many other signs as well that there is a problem with the tree eg crown dieback, large limb death/fall etc. As you identified earlier, the tree is otherwise healthy which means it has the capability to deal with this little problem. You have also pointed out that the heartwood remains solid, so infact still affords the tree structural stability.

 

I've seen many products sold at the hardware store- fungicide even sold especially for trees- but keep reading online that it 'does no good'. It looks to me like some white rot, or wet rot. Which I understand is bad, but not as bad as dry rot.

Also someone mentioned washing with diluted bleach to kill fungus, but I don't think that would work in this case.

Any thoughts???

 

To be honest, I would avoid putting chemicals in to the environment without any sound understanding of what I was putting there and what the wider implications of the chemicals are.

 

Overall what I think this situation comes down to is your personal appetite for retaining the tree. It appears that you are looking for justifications to fell the tree, and I can understand this to a degree as you are aware of the full implications of the site and the tree in its location.

 

Ultimately though, you will have to decide if you want to keep the tree or not - your choice based on the information we have given.

[10 Bears]

If crown decline or basal decay becomes significant, fell the tree.

 

TreeTiger - I agree with all you said above, I just have a problem with the idea of 'significant'. This is not a criticism though, just an observation...

 

Its such a subjective measure that your idea of significant is different to mine and visa-versa. I also believe from the comments that the OP's threshold for significant is a lot lower then mine (although admittedly I'm not standing next to the tree like the OP is!).

 

Perhaps you could explain your thoughts on significant in this instance for the OP so that they can gain a better insight?

[jeffpas]

>>> It appears that you are looking for justifications to fell the tree>>>

 

I have to laugh if I gave that impression, because actually its the exact opposite- I'm looking for justifications to NOT cut the tree down.

Largely because I've gotten feller quotes of $1200-$1600.00. Yikes.

 

The tree appears healthy all of this is just paranoia of the worst case scenario, the tree falling on the neighbor's house. Which because of its slight lean, I was worried about even before I knew about the wound.

 

It appears the tree grew with the lean deliberately because the yard is small and it was bending away from other nearby trees. Thats the price you pay for a postage stamp sized lawn. Nevertheless I had no idea the tree would get so tall- it grew like a weed and looks tortuously tall and narrow lol. Although it seems to have flared out at the base somewhat at least.

I can only assume these trees know what they're doing aka its not going to grow itself so tall it can't stand.

 

It looks like the solution here is pretty much to do nothing, and watch out for fruiting- if it grows mushrooms, time to cut it down. At least that's what I've managed to find online. Let me know if anyone disagrees.

Thanks for comments!

Edited September 14, 2015 by jeffpas