Managing Armillaria

[Fungus]

1. No one's guaranteeing forever--a short-term benefit is still a benefit, and may allow other therapies, such as soil work to mitigate acidification and nitrification, take hold. For trunks and buttresses, decay fungi can and should be resisted.

2. Soil type influenced disease development and the proportion of trees infected was higher in an acidic sand soil than in an alkaline clay soil."

 

1. Excessive nitrification enhances wood degrading fungi to speed up the decay of dead wood which can not be mitigated by soil work.

2. No wonder, as the hyphae of Armillaria are protected against acids, bacteria and other fungi by the melanin layers shielding them off (plaques) or covering and surrounding them (rhizomorphs).

Edited May 20, 2012 by Fungus

[treeseer]

& 1. No one's guaranteeing forever--a short-term benefit is still a benefit, and may allow other therapies, such as soil work to mitigate acidification and nitrification, take hold. For trunks and buttresses, decay fungi can and should be resisted.

1. Excessive nitrification enhances wood degrading fungi to speed up the decay of dead wood which can not be mitigated by soil work.

 

& 1.a. Who cares about dead wood being decayed? It's the decay of living tree tissue that is of concern, and it can be mitigated by sanitization and exposure.

&1.b. Yes excess N can go to the bad guys; no news there. Does anyone doubt that excessive nitrification can be mitigated by soil work, or growing beneficial associated plants that buffer these effects and take up a lot of N? Tautological. Is there any harm in experimenting?

 

&2. Soil type influenced disease development and the proportion of trees infected was higher in an acidic sand soil than in an alkaline clay soil."

 

2. No wonder, as the hyphae of Armillaria are protected against acids, bacteria and other fungi by the melanin layers shielding them off (plaques) or covering and surrounding them (rhizomorphs).

 

&2.a. That is why Armillaria should be removed from trees of value. This is not a complex concept.

&2.b. Nitrification humor--If too much manure is spread, you can smell the derriere, dairy air, hahaha.

 

Other points can be addressed to (or by) the authors of the research. I am not a mycologist or ecologist but a humble arborist, caring for trees the best way I can see. I just posted the research in response to your request.

See you on the next thread!

[Fungus]

1. Who cares about dead wood being decayed ?

2. Does anyone doubt that excessive nitrification can be mitigated by soil work, or growing beneficial associated plants that buffer these effects and take up a lot of N ? Is there any harm in experimenting ?

3. That is why Armillaria should be removed from trees of value. This is not a complex concept.

 

1. Humble arborists do if they are to assess and manage the stability and the risk of falling of a tree.

2. Most of the European researchers qualified on the subject of excessive nitrification do and otherwise would have found a "cure" for or a method of mitigating the effects of nitrification, which by the way is not restricted to the soil. And there is no harm in experimenting if it is done by properly trained experts using scientifically valid methods.

3. If it was that simple, we would not have a massive Armillaria problem.

[treeseer]

1. Humble arborists do if they are to assess and manage the stability and the risk of falling of a tree.

 

&Good point--I stand corrected. I should have said "spread to living tissue is a far greater concern than loss of structurally significant but inactive wood. This is especially true since the disease typically moves from the outside in, so destabilization due to Armillaria occurs a long long time after the initial infection." Is that closer to true?

 

2. Most of the European researchers qualified on the subject of excessive nitrification do not (consider soil works or associated plantings of potential usefulness)and otherwise would have found a "cure" for or a method of mitigating the effects of nitrification.

 

&What is the scientific basis for this opinion? If no experiments have taken place, maybe they should. If this is another case of "believe me/us, based on who we are", then with all due respect there is cause for skepticism.

Unless "qualified" means "omniscient".

 

2. which by the way is not restricted to the soil.

 

& Yes, I'm aware it's in the air, hence the derriere/dairy air reference. (Why don't I hear laughter? ) And you must be aware that associated plants and mulch can capture and hold N that is in the air.

 

2. And there is no harm in experimenting if it is done by properly trained experts using scientifically valid methods.

 

& There is no harm in experimenting, if the alternative is a removal program--by the way, has this removal program been scientifically verified through experimentation? Or is a best guess, based on the questionable hypothesis that fungus plays the leading part in tsse?

 

3. If it was that simple, we would not have a massive Armillaria problem.

 

& Maybe the problem seems massive because the range of proposed solutions is mistakenly constrained. If no experiments have taken place, maybe they should.

Edited May 21, 2012 by treeseer
Avoiding buttons.

[Fungus]

1. What is the scientific basis for this opinion ? If no experiments have taken place, maybe they should. If this is another case of "believe me/us, based on who we are", then with all due respect there is cause for skepticism.

2. I'm aware it's in the air.

3. And you must be aware that associated plants and mulch can capture and hold N that is in the air.

4. has this removal program been scientifically verified through experimentation ?

5. Or is a best guess, based on the questionable hypothesis that fungus plays the leading part in tsse ?

6. If no experiments have taken place, maybe they should.

 

1. Over twenty five years of short and long term experimental and in situ research done by several highly qualified European scientists from different backgrounds of which you obviously never have heard, which makes me all the more skeptical about your supposed expertise on the subject of Armillaria with you trying to detect hyphae with a magnifying glass in the past.

2. You first said that acidification comes from cow pads, remember ? And what about spreading of nitrification by ground and surface water ?

3. Do you seriously think that plants and natural mulch can compensate for the massive nitrification of the soil through the air and by water and on what scientifically valid research is this personal (?) opinion based ?

4. Yes, it has as well in The Netherlands as in Germany for individual or rows of several species of trees in lanes or roadside verges and for trees in infected forests (oak, spruce).

5. Questionable, sure and that's why an in vitro and in situ program of international scientific research has started since 2007 and my book "De verborgen boom" presenting the concept of the Tree Species Specific Ecosystem is published coming September, which is more than can be said of your rather religious "mission statement", that can nor will not be tested for validity at all.

6. See 1.

Edited May 26, 2012 by Fungus

[treeseer]

Ad 4. Who says I've ever condemned a tree on the presence of nearby rhizomorphs or on the mere presence of rhizomorphs alone ? Speaking of jumping to conclusions !

 

maybe i misunderstood this

 

"In The Netherlands and the western parts of Germany this far we've seen several hundreds of beeches and/or oaks in lanes, alongside local roads, on estates and at the edges of beech and oak woods of which the root systems have been infected and colonized by rhizomorphs. I have monitored an infected oak wood for eight years during which the presence of rhizomorphs on the roots of the trees increased from 40 % to 90 % because of extreme nitrification (manure).

And because of that we have chosen for the proactive strategy of removing an infected lane or roadside tree ***and both its neighbours ** to prevent the rhizomorphs from spreading."

 

If this is not happening as it reads, that would be great!

 

Ad 7. The question is not whether I can prove it wrong, it's whether you can prove it right.

 

Beg to differ. If it cannot be proven wrong, and the alternatives are not proven better, then trying any method seems preferable to losing the resource. Unless the resource of interest is the fungus, and the tree is just a minor element. Owner/manager decision.

 

It's difficult to understand the above strategy of proactively felling the neighbours of infected trees. Can this actually taking place and sanctioned by any part of academia? Where is the proof that preemptive felling will effectively prevent transmission to the next tree?

 

If criteria for potential usefulness of other treatments are set by a demand for proof-in-advance, there's no rapprochement possible. At this point we sadly must agree to disagree. Forest ecologist and arborist differences also, inevitable, nothing personal about it.

[Fungus]

1. Over twenty five years of short and long term experimental and in situ research done by several highly qualified European scientists from different backgrounds of which you obviously never have heard, which makes me all the more skeptical about your supposed expertise on the subject of Armillaria with you trying to detect hyphae with a magnifying glass in the past.

2. You first said that acidification comes from cow pads, remember ? And what about spreading of nitrification by ground and surface water ?

3. Do you seriously think that plants and natural mulch can compensate for the massive nitrification of the soil through the air and by water and on what scientifically valid research is this personal (?) opinion based ?

4. Yes, it has as well in The Netherlands as in Germany for individual or rows of several species of trees in lanes or roadside verges and for trees in infected forests (oak, spruce).

5. Questionable, sure and that's why an in vitro and in situ program of international scientific research has started since 2007 and my book "De verborgen boom" presenting the concept of the Tree Species Specific Ecosystem is published coming September, which is more than can be said of your rather religious "mission statement", that can nor will not be tested for validity at all.

6. See 1.

 

With this reply and after consulting some of my colleagues and arborists from the U.K., the European continent and Australia on your obvious lack of expertise on mycological aspects of tree care, I have ended reacting to any of your posts on this forum, nor to enlighten you as the owner of Better Tree Care on the subject of mycology or forest ecology.

Edited May 26, 2012 by Fungus

[treeseer]

I'll look for the TSSE opus when it comes out in English--always happy to examine more of the context around urban trees. o and that Website link was way outdated--thanks for letting me know it was still out there.

 

Historic Tree Care | We are dedicated to the preservation of valuable veteran trees. By working from roots to shoots, our goal is to revive historic trees and prepare them for the future.

 

With this reply and after reviewing your obvious lack of expertise on, or even any interest whatsoever in the *arboricultural* aspects of urban ecology, I give up as well. At this point we sadly must agree to disagree.

 

Forest ecologist and arborist differences in viewpoint are inevitable, more so when both are so passionate about their fields, both with religion in their mission statements, that they cannot look dispassionately at any other. Nothing personal about it.

[Fungus]

"With this reply and after reviewing your obvious lack of expertise on, or even any interest whatsoever in the *arboricultural* aspects of urban ecology"

 

Quote from my "CV" on Arbtalk : "... from 1996 on ... an educationial program with seminars and in situ workshops all over The Netherlands and Belgium following and completing a basic VTA course ... the participants of the mycological courses and workshops, which were a few hundred over the 11 years I was associated with an international tree company for which I assessed and monitored (both VTA and MTA) over 15.000 urban and road side trees. During that period I also intensively worked together with Claus Mattheck."

 

both with religion in their mission statements : :lol:

[Steve Bullman]

I have ended reacting to any of your posts on this forum

 

Be strong Gerrit