Thermal Imaging Camera's

[BatiArb]

In my earlier posting, i made mention of the looooooooong list of industry recognised and used alternatives...... QTRA, VTA, THREATS etc.....

 

In response, you make mention that TI can be integrated with these methods......

 

 

Question is, when will you/Andrew in whatever guise you so deem, be in reciept of acknowledgement of this integration, from the instigators of these "other" peer reviewed assessment methods?

 

 

 

It was not so long ago that I discussed the technology with Mike Elison at an Ancient Tree Forum visit to Tatton Park.

 

I have attached the event review which appeared in essentialARB.

 

He personally expressed an enthusiasm for the application of thermal imaging and the insight it offers us.

 

 

 

 

 

.

AncientTreeForum.pdf

[Andy Clark]

It was not so long ago that I discussed the technology with Mike Elison at an Ancient Tree Forum visit to Tatton Park.

 

I have attached the event review which appeared in essentialARB.

 

He personally expressed an enthusiasm for the application of thermal imaging and the insight it offers us.

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

That doesn't answer the question Andrew...... i asked when you expect to receive acknowledgement of integration.

[Marcus B-T]

Sorry the pedant joke was aimed at Andrew.

 

Andy I agree that in many cases there is only a need for a VTA at what ever price but there are also situations where more information is needed. one of the first paying TI jobs I did was at a park in the South West where 200 trees had been condemned or recommended by a well respected consultant who I know well and also respect. When I turned up the first thing I noticed was that nearly all the trees had very similar symptoms and while there were a number of trees with fruiting bodies etc I was suspicious. So I got the camera out and spent a day and a half collecting the data.

 

It become apparent that all the trees were partly drought stressed and taking up water from deep in the soil to combat this (there is a particular temperature signature for this which is quite rare in the UK). This was not the cause of the visual symptoms alone. The site was close to the sea and the trees were taking up brackish water. This was stressing them and the fungi were all saprophytic. Result was 200 hundred trees recommended for work became 6 for invasive inspection and in the end I think 2 were taken down.

 

Now to be fair to the original consultant would have needed a crystal ball to work it out. I have a list of plant physiology qualifications and publications as long as your arm and I would not have worked it out without the right kit.

 

Then there was the Beach Road West incident in Somerset, where a tree suddenly fell down in a light wind. We surveyed and found a tree that looked no different to the others visually but had ahrdly any heat going in to it from the ground. The tree was drilled by the tree officer and he didn't find the decay because it was right at the very base, luckily he drilled lower down where I recomeded and he found that 90% of the base and roots had gone. The reason we were asked to look at the trees was they had all had a VTA assessment but there was concern that another failure would be catastrophic in terms of public relations. The tree we found was the only on outside a house (Sod's law).

 

I could go on but the point is that yes VTA, quick and cheap, but it has limits and what is the next stage of investigation? With young trees probably nothing. When dealing with older trees you just can't drill, probe, and aerial inspectlarge numbers it will tend to lead to corrective work or cost a fortune and niether may be appropriate. There is some realy good data on this by a German (think his surname is Frick). There was a comment earlier about well respected accomplished arbs. If you want to see well respected arb consultants arguing put the in front of a veteran or ancient tree and ask them what they would do. I am regularly asked by respected consultants to provide thermal imaging surveys (or point them in the direction of a licensee) of veteran or ancient trees, they find the information invaluable, particularly when dealing with M. giganteus; K. deusta or even Ganoderma sp

[Marcus B-T]

Jim Clark has already used in part the methodology for assessing liklihood from population data that I presented to the ISA in Turin. Julian Forbes Laird and some of his associates has used TI as a part of THREATS. Many licensed QTRA users use TI as well, the list goes on. Seems to me a great number of people are using it and the number is growing.

[Amelanchier]

Er. 'scuse me guys. Can you see my posts? Shall I do them in False Thermo Colours for you?

 

I have asked for references/citations for supporting publications twice now. So has another member. MBT, you've mentioned that Giorgio's work is 3 years old - where can I find the most recent work? Or is it the case that that 2008 citation is still the most recent?If that is the case, then I suggest that the claims of TI are not currently supported by the literature.If not then please furnish us with the citations! Chapter and verse. We're big enough to handle it.I find it amazing that it has been suggested by AC that we go and review the past 90 years of research ourselves - why on earth should we?You make the claim, you support it!So please, stop repeating the beginning of the story (how the theory works) and the end (lots of people use it) - give us access to the reams and reams of evidence which you say is out there.

[Andy Clark]

Sorry the pedant joke was aimed at Andrew.

 

Andy I agree that in many cases there is only a need for a VTA at what ever price but there are also situations where more information is needed. one of the first paying TI jobs I did was at a park in the South West where 200 trees had been condemned or recommended by a well respected consultant who I know well and also respect. When I turned up the first thing I noticed was that nearly all the trees had very similar symptoms and while there were a number of trees with fruiting bodies etc I was suspicious. So I got the camera out and spent a day and a half collecting the data.

 

It become apparent that all the trees were partly drought stressed and taking up water from deep in the soil to combat this (there is a particular temperature signature for this which is quite rare in the UK). This was not the cause of the visual symptoms alone. The site was close to the sea and the trees were taking up brackish water. This was stressing them and the fungi were all saprophytic. Result was 200 hundred trees recommended for work became 6 for invasive inspection and in the end I think 2 were taken down.

 

Now to be fair to the original consultant would have needed a crystal ball to work it out. I have a list of plant physiology qualifications and publications as long as your arm and I would not have worked it out without the right kit.

 

Then there was the Beach Road West incident in Somerset, where a tree suddenly fell down in a light wind. We surveyed and found a tree that looked no different to the others visually but had ahrdly any heat going in to it from the ground. The tree was drilled by the tree officer and he didn't find the decay because it was right at the very base, luckily he drilled lower down where I recomeded and he found that 90% of the base and roots had gone. The reason we were asked to look at the trees was they had all had a VTA assessment but there was concern that another failure would be catastrophic in terms of public relations. The tree we found was the only on outside a house (Sod's law).

 

I could go on but the point is that yes VTA, quick and cheap, but it has limits and what is the next stage of investigation? With young trees probably nothing. When dealing with older trees you just can't drill, probe, and aerial inspectlarge numbers it will tend to lead to corrective work or cost a fortune and niether may be appropriate. There is some realy good data on this by a German (think his surname is Frick). There was a comment earlier about well respected accomplished arbs. If you want to see well respected arb consultants arguing put the in front of a veteran or ancient tree and ask them what they would do. I am regularly asked by respected consultants to provide thermal imaging surveys (or point them in the direction of a licensee) of veteran or ancient trees, they find the information invaluable, particularly when dealing with M. giganteus; K. deusta or even Ganoderma sp

 

Marcus, it's not so much about "only being a need" for VTA type inspection methods, it's about what the customer wants!

 

And in 90 % of cases, unless as i stated in my first post it is a tree/target of significant value, it will always come down to price!

 

 

Look chaps, I'm no scientist..... I'm a contract manager with an extensive practical arb background. Like i've said since my opening post, i have neither criticism nor interest in the scientific in's and out's - personally, I think anything that furthers our understanding of tree physiology is great...... but you're trying to sell something that relies on people sense of "doing the right thing"....

 

Why not keep it as a purely research based tool/application?

 

Why come on here trying to convince people that it has a sustainable commercial value?

[Andy Clark]

Jim Clark has already used in part the methodology for assessing liklihood from population data that I presented to the ISA in Turin. Julian Forbes Laird and some of his associates has used TI as a part of THREATS. Many licensed QTRA users use TI as well, the list goes on. Seems to me a great number of people are using it and the number is growing.

 

Yes, but where is the acknowledgement of integration??

[Marcus B-T]

Andy the acknolwledgement is in their reports to clients, their summing up assessments and in their use of the information. I have a publication accepted by the arb journal that goes through this and which will be published soon. Also there is the paper I presented in Turin.

 

Tony these will make good bed-time reading to start with

 

Atkins P and de Paula J (2006) ‘Atkins’ Physical Chemistry-8th Edition. Oxford University Press.

 

Catena A and Catena G (2007) Overview of thermal imaging for tree assessment. Arboric Journal 31.

 

Herrington LP (1969). On temperature and heat flow in tree stems. Yale Univ. Sch. For. Bull. 73.

 

Hunt JF, Gu H and Lebow PK (2008) Theoretical thermal conductivity equation for uniform density wood cells. Wood and Fiber Science, 40(2): 167 – 180

 

Monteith, JL and Unsworth, MH (2007) Principles of Environmental Physics-Third Edition. Academic Press, London.

 

Potter BE and Andresen JA (2002) A finite-difference model of temperatures and heat flow within a tree stem. Can. J. For. Res. 32: 548–555.

[BatiArb]

Just to clarify something here.

 

I have not been involved in any of the background research for thermal imaging. I am a user of the technology personally and professionally for both research and commercial enterprise (these days it is almost impossible to undertake one without the other, simply on a matter of cost). I am lucky enough to have my own camera so I have the opportunity to play around with things and to explore the environment around me with a new sensory stimulation.

 

I first became interested in thermal imaging nearly 10 years ago and was inspired by its introduction to UK arboriculture by Giorgio Gatena, I have been following its progression every since and started using it myself 5 years ago. Now a substantial amount of my work involves its application in some shape or form. It was natural for me to become one of the first licensed users of the TTMS (Tree Thermal Matrix Software) just over 2 years ago now, and I have assisted with its commercial development.

 

The scientific research behind thermal imaging’s commercial application for tree assessment is all down to Giorgio and Marcus, who subsequently rely on numerous other scientists who have been researching the use of thermal imaging for decades. However, it does not require a science degree to be a user of the technology, all it needs is an understanding of how it works, and a healthy respect for its limitations.

 

Thermal imaging technology and any software calibration tool used to process the images are all just technical devices to improve our understanding of how trees work and react to their ecological growing environment. This provides us with a better insight into their physiological and morphological condition and improves our management recommendations.

 

For me it all about expanding our knowledge of trees, increasing the quality of advice we offer and the fulfillment of knowing we can truly say we care for trees……..

 

I am not hear trying to sell you a product or service. For me this is about sharing new ideas and encouraging others to explore things for themselves.

 

 

 

 

 

'

[Arborist Sites]

Er. 'scuse me guys. Can you see my posts? Shall I do them in False Thermo Colours for you?

 

I have asked for references/citations for supporting publications twice now. So has another member. MBT, you've mentioned that Giorgio's work is 3 years old - where can I find the most recent work? Or is it the case that that 2008 citation is still the most recent?If that is the case, then I suggest that the claims of TI are not currently supported by the literature.If not then please furnish us with the citations! Chapter and verse. We're big enough to handle it.I find it amazing that it has been suggested by AC that we go and review the past 90 years of research ourselves - why on earth should we?You make the claim, you support it!So please, stop repeating the beginning of the story (how the theory works) and the end (lots of people use it) - give us access to the reams and reams of evidence which you say is out there.

 

I dont think they like us Tony, they wont answer my simple questions nor Mr Clark's. Ive given up trying.....

 

We could do with a happy client to join and let us know how good the system is !

 

Marcus could you give Sam Corngrass a prod as a paid up happy customer i have some questions for him about the end benefits for a paying customer..........