Re-pollard of ancient Willow

[Fungus]

... dynamics of tree species specific ecosystems ... I still have questions about how specific they are ... do urban trees require the same associations in the same pattern to function well, given their non-forest environment? I can see the benefit of mimicking nature to the utmost practical extent

 

I have monitored a lot of parks, broad verges of cycle tracks or (dirt) roads and canal banks in semi-urban aereas and assessed how f.i. middle aged beeches went through all the tree species specific successive phases of tree species specific ectomycorrhizal macrofungi, such as Amanita, Tricholoma, Russula and/or Lactarius species and boletes.

There even is a Dutch canal bank with beech, common oak and a lot of red oak with so many rare spine fungi (Hydnaceae), that it's now under protection of a strict regime of mowing without damaging the fungi, mosses or trees and it is forbidden to park in between the trees to prevent compaction.

And if an urban tree is not in good health and you don't know what the problem is, nor how to solve it, go back to its original habitat and tree species specific ecosystem to find out what the tree species needs to thrive and go through the successive phases of its tree species specific life cycle.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Fungus

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

hey! that wasnt so hard was it! crikey this is actualy starting to be a decent thread now!

 

Noted Guy

[treeseer]

1. I have monitored a lot of parks, broad verges of cycle tracks or (dirt) roads and canal banks in semi-urban aereas and assessed how f.i. middle aged beeches went through all the tree species specific successive phases of tree species specific ectomycorrhizal macrofungi, such as Amanita, Tricholoma, Russula and/or Lactarius species and boletes.

There even is a Dutch canal bank with beech, common oak and a lot of red oak with so many rare spine fungi (Hydnaceae), that it's now under protection of a strict regime of mowing without damaging the fungi, mosses or trees and it is forbidden to park in between the trees to prevent compaction.

 

Sounds good, but how can mowing not damage fungi that fruit in the grass? How wide are those trees' mulched areas?

Also, it's rather hard to follow "...tree species specific successive phases of tree species specific..." Yes these natural processes sound good to preserve where practical.

 

2. And if an urban tree is not in good health and you don't know what the problem is, nor how to solve it, go back to its original habitat

 

Positively, yes, find out what the tree evolved in, or "grew up with", and mimic that to the extent that is practical.

 

"and tree species specific ecosystem to find out what the tree species needs to thrive and go through the successive phases of its tree species specific life cycle.

 

Do tree species really have a specific life cycle? This sounds determinate, whereas my understanding was that trees' lives are indeterminate. Can't trees successfully adapt to changes around them, rather than requiring one defined pattern of interaction with one defined set of associates?

 

That's what all this reference to specificity sounds like to me--am I interpreting that correctly? Or are you speaking in a broader scope, referring to the tree as a component of an ecosystem, and living and dying within that larger perspective?

 

del Tredici: "In trees, physiological and developmental aging operate independently. They can be simultaneously embryonic and senile, resulting in a form of ecological immortality. It is this potential for immortality that makes trees so fascinating to work with."

[Fungus]

1. how can mowing not damage fungi that fruit in the grass? How wide are those trees' mulched areas?

2. Also, it's rather hard to follow "...tree species specific successive phases of tree species specific..."

3. Do tree species really have a specific life cycle? This sounds determinate, whereas my understanding was that trees' lives are indeterminate. Can't trees successfully adapt to changes around them, rather than requiring one defined pattern of interaction with one defined set of associates? That's what all this reference to specificity sounds like to me--am I interpreting that correctly? Or are you speaking in a broader scope, referring to the tree as a component of an ecosystem, and living and dying within that larger perspective?

4. del Tredici: "In trees, physiological and developmental aging operate independently. They can be simultaneously embryonic and senile, resulting in a form of ecological immortality. It is this potential for immortality that makes trees so fascinating to work with."

 

1. Simple, by mowing and removing the grass twice a year and the second time about a month before the fruiting season of the ectomycorrhizal macrofungi starts and using low weight mowing machines. The verges are 2-4 metres, and the canal banks, including the slopes, are 4-8 metres wide.

2. I know, that's why it took me 35 years of field research to get a bit of a notion of the dynamics of and succession in tree species specific ecosystems and tree species specific life cycles. Or did you mean to say, you want the terms shortened to : the tsssp of tsse including the tsssfw and the tssem ?

3. As long as my DVD on the MTA-method, including the concept of the Tree Species Specific Ecosystems of indigenous trees, is not published, because of (©), I'm not "spilling all the beans" in advance.

So you'll have to take my word for it, that tree species specific succession of tree related and/or dependend organisms in tree species specific ecosystems, which have evolved over hundreds thousands of years, is rather determinate and resistent to alteration or adaptation, provided, the circumstances do not suddenly and/or dramatically change with the effect of completely unbalancing the ecosystem.

Why else do you think most of our often "exotic" urban tree species, which go without their natural habitats and ecosystems, never really thrive in our managed concrete and polluted environments and lead such a poor and short "pot plant's" life ?

Could it be, because they even after decades following their introduction, can't fully adapt to an unnatural situation extremely different from "the green green grass of home" ?

And yes, of course I am speaking in a broader scope, i.e. a forest ecological context, where trees are the main provider ("sugar daddy") of the entire forest ecosystem with a multitude of other organisms depending on them.

To share a bit of information on the succession of tree species specific saprotrophic macrofungi and the species associated with forest fires and burned wood (link included on the page), and the role they play in wood decomposition and recycling to keep the forest's food chain intact, see : Succession of saprotrophic wood degrading macrofungi.

4. Nice one , though incomplete, as it considers a tree to be a highly independent individual organism without implicating a forest ecological or tree species specific ecosystem viewpoint.

[treeseer]

1. Simple, by mowing and removing the grass twice a year and the second time about a month before the fruiting season of the ectomycorrhizal macrofungi starts and using low weight mowing machines. The verges are 2-4 metres, and the canal banks, including the slopes, are 4-8 metres wide.

 

Dose and timing of treatments, nice! In the US the root/mower interaction is a big issue for trees; how is this handled?

 

2. I know, that's why it took me 35 years of field research to get a bit of a notion of the dynamics of and succession in tree species specific ecosystems and tree species specific life cycles. Or did you mean to say, you want the terms shortened to : the tsssp of tsse including the tsssfw and the tssem ?

 

The length is fine; it's the degree of specificity taht I am still working on.

 

3. As long as my DVD on the MTA-method, including the concept of the Tree Species Specific Ecosystems of indigenous trees, is not published, because of (©), I'm not "spilling all the beans" in advance.

 

fair enough.

 

"So you'll have to take my word for it, that tree species specific succession of tree related and/or dependend organisms in tree species specific ecosystems, which have evolved over hundreds thousands of years, is rather determinate and resistent to alteration or adaptation, provided, the circumstances do not suddenly and/or dramatically change with the effect of completely unbalancing the ecosystem.

 

The sudden/dramatic = unbalancing yes, that speaks to dose and timing.

How determinate is the big question. Trees resist some alterations more than others, certainly. They can also adapt to some changes more readily than others. As far as simply taking anyone's word for anything...that does not sound very scientific. I'll get the DVD, and see.

 

"Why else do you think most of our often "exotic" urban tree species, which go without their natural habitats and ecosystems, never really thrive in our managed concrete and polluted environments and lead such a poor and short "pot plant's" life ?

Could it be, because they even after decades following their introduction, can't fully adapt to an unnatural situation extremely different from "the green green grass of home" ?

 

No doubt about that, though many species that are native to local forests also fail to thrive in non-native urban soils and conditions, where some exotics do better.

 

"And yes, of course I am speaking in a broader scope, i.e. a forest ecological context, where trees are the main provider ("sugar daddy") of the entire forest ecosystem with a multitude of other organisms depending on them.

 

Right; I thought that your forest ecological scope was worth clarifying.

 

4. Nice one , though incomplete, as it considers a tree to be a highly independent individual organism without implicating a forest ecological or tree species specific ecosystem viewpoint.

 

Oh I doubt del Tredici meant to exclude associates, or considers a tree to be a highly independent individual organism. His work on trees as part of urban ecosystems shows high awareness of that. I agree that the forest ecosystem viewpoint is essential for this arborist to consider, but for me the dominant viewpoint remains the individual tree. That tree is also highly dependent on its site and its owners and community and stakeholders and management and its current unnatural ecosystem.

 

Restoring as much of its heritage, including the tsssp of tsse including the tsssfw and the tssem, as practical is always the goal, as with the exemplary low-disturbance mowing regimen you describe. So the arboricultural and the forest ecological viewpoints are two spheres that overlap, and should overlap a great deal more. But if, in anyone's approach to tree care, one viewpoint dominates--contains the other entirely--then perhaps something is being missed.

[Fungus]

1. In the US the root/mower interaction is a big issue for trees; how is this handled?

2. "So you'll have to take my word for it ...". As far as simply taking anyone's word for anything...that does not sound very scientific. I'll get the DVD, and see.

 

Guy,

Some final answers, because I think we've milked the cow dry by now, which I think is a typical Dutch expression.

1. It's not, only in this exceptional situation, otherwise we also have a lot of damage done to superficial roots, buttresses (this time right, right ? ) and trunk bases of urban trees by lawn and verge mowers.

2. I hoped, I had earned a bit of credit on the subject by now .

Edited September 1, 2011 by Fungus

[treeseer]

"Some final answers, because I think we've milked the cow dry by now, which I think is a typical Dutch expression."

 

And a familiar one to this son of the Dairy State of Wisconsin, where you can smell the dairy air, or derriere, in a typical French expression.

 

1. It's not, only in this exceptional situation, otherwise we also have a lot of damage done to superficial roots, buttresses (this time right, right ?

 

yes, "buttock" reminds me of Forrest Gump's war wound.

 

"and trunk bases of urban trees by lawn and verge mowers.

 

I am sorry to hear that "mower blight" is an international scourge.

 

2. I hoped, I had earned a bit of credit on the subject by now

 

O yes a very large bit of credit, certainly. Maybe six bits!

But automatic credibility, well, that would be incredibly unscientific, straining credulity for even the most credulous tree guys.

 

Mooooooving back to whomping the willow, or chewing the cud.

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

 

Mooooooving back to whomping the willow, or chewing the cud.

 

well... like i said, pollard it (anti shigo method stylie, watch the ISA men cringe!)

 

oh and maybe leave the dead fallen limb as habitat.

 

simples:001_tongue:

[treeseer]

"well... like i said, pollard it (anti shigo method stylie, watch the ISA men cringe!)"

 

No one needs to cringe, except maybe the underinformed and overopinionated. Are there references you can cite for this anti-Shigo/ISA rant?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I thought not. here are some, fyi:

 

Shigo 1986: "Ground pollarding for biomass or fuelwood is commonly done on species of alder or *willow* in Europe". Not much difference between ground pollarding and cutting back to sound wood at any level.

 

ISA's Arborist News 2004: "...What looked like ugly stubs at first grew into attractive, safe and symmetrical portions of our valuable tree canopy. Some observers initially object to the sight of reduced branches because they are reminded of topping cuts. It may be time for the anti-topping passion to cool a little, so we can consider heading cuts without worrying about them looking like topping cuts. ..."

 

ISA's Arborist News 2010: Reduction of tree crowns is largely misunderstood, due in large part to the anti-topping crusade that arborists have had to fight, to prevent that reckless and internodal pruning from ruining more trees. Formal research on crown reduction is extraordinarily difficult due to the immense variables, so one trend has been to repeat simple criteria, like the one-third rules applied to stem walls and branch diameter ratios.

 

Research on structural pruning shows that the removal of one codominant stem will introduce decay into the other, so it should be reduced instead. Reduction slows its growth rate, subordinating the stem into a branch. Discoloration and decay is farther from the fork, protecting the remaining stem. Compartmentalization depends on species, the activity of the parenchyma cells, and the availability of stored material. Late summer crown reduction may elicit the best wound response.

 

"oh and maybe leave the dead fallen limb as habitat."

 

Coarse Woody Debris is heavenly; you should visit my landscape if you want to see deadwood habitat!

[Fungus]

pollard it (anti shigo method stylie, watch the ISA men cringe!)

 

Whatever method used, if you do it right, you may be rewarded by an ectomycorrhizal symbiont, such as this Russula olivaceoviolascens, doing an only once documented trick : fruiting at 2 metres height from adventitious roots growing towards the inside and into the debris gathered in the open top of the pollarded or "beheaded" trunk of a willow .

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