Fungi- Ally or enemy?

[Amelanchier]

I don't think the wave metaphor helps. I'm also not keen on the appropriation of Newtonian physics (i.e., the much abused third law of motion - for which I personally blame the Matrix trilogy). Whilst it can be said that there is an opposite force to evolution, namely Hama's old friend entropy, it is certainly not equal. Entropy is inevitable and ultimately irreversible - evolution (a.k.a. self-organisation) isn't. Life is the clear underdog and the wise bookies know it. We should also mind Sean's previous warning in another post to steer clear of teleology; species can't bide their time, they have no goal. That said, I'm sure you were merely illustrating an analogy.

 

Whether a versitile organism can be truly pathogenic depends on the proliferation of its host/s. Typically, although parasites (which incidentally happen to be gloriously elegant arguements for the absence of a benevolent deity) exhibit neccessarily more complicated reproductive systems than their hosts, patterns of their population development are often no more convoluted than the simple staggered curves of a regular predator prey relationship. Even though they obviously refrain the indignity of manually rending their target limb from bloody limb and gorging hungrily on their steaming entrails.

 

As far as the quest for rebranding fungi goes, I would suggest that the terms of 'parasitic' and 'saprotrophic' are no more definate than the terms 'red' and 'green'. Mere human (western?) labels to identify points within a spectrum of activity. At what point does red become orange? Where is the line between benefit and exploitation? I think you're aiming to much criticism at words rather than the concept (those windmills are not giants).

 

Much better that we acknowledge that we can't define such things than we try to sanctify fungi. In any case, I've always preferred ants.

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

Much better that we acknowledge that we can't define such things than we try to sanctify fungi. In any case, I've always preferred ants.

 

If ants can sanctify thier own mushroom diety, so can I:001_tt2:

[Amelanchier]

Ah, you know what I mean. I only write half this stuff to see if I can...

[Amelanchier]

Incidentally, I was being broadly supportive of your cause. I just hid it well.

 

I would suggest that the terms of 'parasitic' and 'saprotrophic' are no more definate than the terms 'red' and 'green'. Mere human (western?) labels to identify points within a spectrum of activity. At what point does red become orange? Where is the line between benefit and exploitation?

[Bundle 2]

Proof no, evidence yes it is:001_tt2:

 

Dictionary my boy! also observe prescision!

 

The evidence is mounting, and shall be "included" within the thread as and when to build the case.

 

I believe now, that there is sufficient evidence to present a valid case to "our" court against the wider theory of pathogenesis/parasitism

 

...I am no scholar and like nothing better than to shoot the breeze and get a little bent out of scientific shape and accuracy, reaching for a madness so readily quashed by the pages of books and logic! Probably plain laziness!

 

Dictionary my boy! also observe prescision!

 

Wise words....(it would often serve to tether me donkey to a mulberry as a precaution ! )

 

I would like to take up a point in an earlier exchange however...I do not seek to undermine what has been said but simply challenge before we reach for the simplified...

Breckland has been discovered to have a biodiversity that owes it's singular existence to agricultural practices.

Of surprising complexity and individuality, without the practices of agriculture being sustained, it would simply dwindle and expire...according to the text. (ref: Concrete....Nov 2010)

There are many surprises in nature it would seem....rules only obscure and dilute the will of an enquiring mind!

Edited December 18, 2010 by Bundle 2

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

...I am no scholar

 

I would like to take up a point in an earlier exchange however...I do not seek to undermine what has been said but simply challenge before we reach for the simplified...

Breckland has been discovered to have a biodiversity that owes it's singular existence to agricultural practices.

Of surprising complexity and individuality, without the practices of agriculture being sustained, it would simply dwindle and expire...according to the text. (ref: Concrete....Nov 2010)

There are many surprises in nature it would seem....rules only obscure and dilute the will of an enquiring mind!

 

One "natural nieghbourhood" within a practice does not indicate a benificial system, agriculture, and wider human industrial enterprise is causing heavy acidification and nitrogen deposition, forest decline globaly is indicated to be largely caused by acidification and nitrogen depositions, causing a loss of mycorrhizea diversity and quality.

 

The "switch" is paving the way for pathogens, which thrive in a world of diminishing biodiversity, a cause of exponential carbon release.

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

Extract Heinz butin “Tree diseases and disorders” ISBN 0-19-854932-5 (Hbk) p95-96

 

Pruning and natural pruning-

It is well known that in the course of their lives many tree species lose their lowest branches and develop a more or less branch-free bole. The same process takes place- though less obviously- in the crown. In forestry, the process is referred to as ‘natural pruning’. This process is particularly striking in oak, beech or Ash; in contrast spruce and silver firs retain their dead branches for a long while.

In broadleaves, two essentially different types of branch shedding can be recognised. The first type only occurs in certain species (e.g. oaks, Poplars and willows) and is initiated by the tree itself through the formation of an abscission layer of parenchyma at the base of the twig. This results in the shedding of the twig, leaving a dished, usually rounded scar. In the case of Pedunculate Oak, the casting of large numbers of abscised twigs indicates high levels of stress, e.g. from prolonged periods of drought.

The branch shedding of abscised twigs should not be confused with wind damage, by which 1-year old shoots can be wrenched off (e.g. in spruce). Squirrels similarly remove twigs by biting, but in this case tooth marks can be seen.

The second, more common type of natural branch pruning involves certain wood decay fungi which become active when the branch ceases to function actively. The branch becomes so decayed at its base that the wind, or a jolt, breaks it off. In slender branches the fungi involved are ascomycetes or fungi imperfecti, most of which are already present as endophytes within the bark before the branches die; the disintegration of thicker branches is brought about mainly by basidiomycetes [43]. In conifers this branch pruning proceeds relatively slowly (larch, Pine) or does not occur at all (Spruce- Douglas Fir)- the result of strong resin impregnation of the branch base.

Oak can serve as an example of fungus-aided natural pruning: its lower branches dying back from lack of light or nutrients are regularly colonised and decomposed by Colpoma quercinum (Pers.) Wallr.

(See images@ images of Colpoma quercinum)

This weak parasite, present in all oak thickets, is distinguished by its lip-shaped, white-bordered apothecia, which are upt to 15mm long, and open more or less widely according to their moisture content. The imperfect state, known as Conostroma didymum (Fautrey & Roum.) Moesz, quite often develops before the perfect state is formed and can be recognised by its cylindrical to ellipsoidal conidia which measure 5-7 x 1.5 um. Other fungal species are also involved with Colpoma quercinum in the decay, occurring to some extent in a regular succession and combination [43]. Beech, Ash, maple, and other species similarly have host specific fungal-communities that bring about this natural form of branch pruning. Thus the process can be regarded as a normal part of tree development, rather than as a pathological event.

[Bundle 2]

That ISBN number is not valid......

 

 

Try this .......ISBN: 9780198549321

Edited December 19, 2010 by Bundle 2

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

Thanks tim

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

This is enough to convince even the likes of our Mr S, and if not, then i guess hes a more stubborn creature than i had given him credit for!

 

With kind permission:001_cool:-Tree seminar 1.pdf