On 21/08/2022 at 10:34, JW arb said:

In defence of KateH and to a lesser extent Paul Elcoat, there is a difference between a “subby” who works for one firm only for a little more than what a sensible salary would be per day who pays no tax and thinks they are better off and an experienced contract climber who knows what they are doing, have the relevant tickets etc, bring all their own kit, are properly organised and have accurate accounts. Let’s be honest we are all aware of the former and in all possibility have been in a similar situation to varying degrees, possibly unknowingly early on in our careers and it is an issue with the industry. 
However, in my opinion, for what that’s worth, we do not value manual craftsman in this country anywhere near where we should and this article and the other is a case in point. Climbing is not seen, to a lot of people, as a valued, respected and viable long term career, and because of this are not paid enough hence the reason there are not enough people in the industry, especially skilled individuals who have a decade or two or even three under their belt. In fact I would say that this is at the root of a fair few of the issues we face as an industry. I think both individuals would have done well to highlight the nuance between the two in their articles but I guess it just shows the prevailing attitude. You can have longevity as a climber but you have to look after yourself physically, be savvy and pace things. If you compare the attitudes and working environments for manual workers in mainland Europe to the UK the difference is stark. I would tentatively state that becoming/ staying employed as a climber in the UK past a certain point in your career will not help your long term outlook for longevity. 

Hi JW, thanks for your comment. It's definitely helpful to draw a distinction between the 'subby' who is pretty much employed and those who are actively sub-contacting their services to a number of clients. We definitely aren't trying to tar everyone with the same brush, more to open a discussion around a difficult topic (that seems to have worked 😬).

Your point about how those in the industry are valued is a huge one and is something I'm trying to understand. Climbers are highly skilled and do a dangerous job. As a relative new-comer to the industry (and to be clear, one who sees it from behind a desk) I have been shocked at the pay offered for what climbers do. We explain to employers, Local Authority and private companies, on a daily basis that they need to be competitive and pay a fair wage but it's like pushing water up hill and probably needs tackling by the industry as a whole. This seems impossible when there doesn't seem to be anyone who speaks for the whole industry... unless there is and I'm missing something?

Thanks for your input and for seeing that we're not meaning to criticise; rather to open discussion and understand the situation from other angles. Kate

On 20/08/2022 at 19:15, Tony Croft aka hamadryad said:

I do not really feel there is any connection with the title of the thread and its content? Seems more like common sense advice in conduct than actual advice, and I dont really think 30 is the age most SHOULD be looking to more serious roles, given most enter arb late these days.

 

Hi Tony, apologies if I've replied to this twice. I thought I had but now can't see it in the thread. Anyway, my point wasn't to suggest that 30 is an age to stop. It was that if at that point a climber starts to plan ahead then they'll be prepared and able to go on to something they want to do when the time comes. We are often asked to find other Arb roles by climbers who want to come off the tools. This is the reason for the post really. We're looking to start conversations and help people to work towards technical roles by having the right knowledge about what qualification/experience is needed for the roles they want. I just said 30s as there are probably 10 more years to plan for what's next and thinking about it in the 40s can be a bit late and narrow opportunities. Hope that makes sense. Kate 

Hi and thanks for all the responses. I have tried to edit the post to pop in a comment that it's not about getting off the tools in your 30s, but I can't work out how so it's here instead. It's about starting to plan ahead at that point so that when the times comes a climber has all the options that they want available to them.

I have appreciated all the comments so far (the serious and the humorous... I will never get the line 'smelling like a bin dripping raccoon' out of my head - thanks Mick!) and am learning as I go.

Beccy and I will be at APF, along with Keely from Tree Life, and would be interested to carry on the discussion with anyone who wants to pop by - stand D11c.

We're also offering a couple of prizes which are in the theme of planning for getting off the tools...link below.

On 21/08/2022 at 11:09, Mick Dempsey said:

Can we have a list of ‘the issues we face as an industry’ please?

I'm so glad you set that up - it's been a really interesting read. Thanks Mick.

12 hours ago, Mick Dempsey said:

I started a thread, ‘Problems and issues this industry faces..’

as a direct consequence of your post in a hope that we could address your question.

Could you post those on that thread?

Thanks.

Mick

Will do when I get a spare 10.