Svts

14 minutes ago, Johnsond said:

Do what you want for me bud but I can assure you there’s no confusion from my side. 

I’d just like to point out you came on here ranting not me , you brought your daughter and son into it not me, you started throwing insults around etc etc  not me. 

If you don’t like certain posts ignore them, that’s what happens online, there’s much I ignore or pass by. You’ve absolutely zero to worry about in regards your daughters safety from a normal hard working family man such as myself, so you can lay those unfounded, irrational, foolish and utterly pointless thoughts to bed and stop talking nonsense.  As for the said individual whom the post mentioned as I said to another on here they should read or research her comments and stance on the USA, the National anthem of her home nation, the abolition of the police, extreme violence being justified in regards BLM etc etc and the right to self identify as whatever. Me personally I’d rather they had released the incarcerated servicemen but that’s only my opinion. Take it or leave it. In regards your summing up at the end, you seem to fit the type of person remarkably well in regards what you claim to so dislike. If you are trying to bring things back up to a standard you seemingly miss then I’ll assist you by refraining from the pathetic name calling you seem to be very  fond of. 

Well that response is at least a bit more considered . Obviously still doesn't address your apparent confusion over her gender status.  And how her political views have any bearing on that. But I see someone else has tried and failed to get you to explain that already. So I'll accept its not going to happen and stop wasting our time any further. 

Nice turn around on the pathetic name calling nonsense at the end there though, (you seem to of forgotten the "he/she oddball freak" utterance of yours that set this whole exchange off), good work.  Unfortunately it's not just me that has noticed a gradual change on this forum . Lots of noise in certain quarters but less  to engage people in the trade seemingly.

I know plenty of individuals involved in the arb/ forestry world that don't bother with it anymore for similar reasons.

Glad to hear that your at times aggressive gobby online tone, towards the sections of society that don't meet with your approval,  doesn't  transfer to real life outside of the Internet. And that in real life you're just a normal hard working  family man much like myself. (I'm sure there's a name for that phenomenon, but I'll refrain from uttering it, lest I fall into the name calling trap again!)

I too ignore a lot of what of I read online. Obviously I shall just have to try harder in future. 

On that note I shall bid you a civil  goodbye. 

13 hours ago, Johnsond said:

That individual whom identifies as god knows what was caught with drugs, constantly slates the country of its birth until it needs it to bale it out, they left servicemen whom have been in jail for far longer languishing for god knows how long so yes others are far more worthy of being exchanged as far as im concerned ( as others have stated the politics involved are a Biden play) Your little big man tizzy fit at the end ,and fake mock shock “wow” means zero to me bud, how you treat or refer to your daughter ie she/it or whatever is your business, I’ve no idea what her sexuality or your sons height are relevant too. In my eyes there are male and female nothing else in between. Me thinks you protest too loudly. 

Well a predictable response I suppose, "bud". No mention of why a straightforward gay women should be described in such terms. She, like my daughter,  doesnt seem to have any confusion as to her gender. She just fancies women. So what was all that he/she/it crap?  Maybe give that big manly head of yours a scratch and have a bit more of a think about it. 

"Fake mock shock wow" ? Why not wow? I genuinely don't  come across such cretinous nonsense very often these days. It wasn't shock, just an expression of my incredulity.

In short, crass rantings such as yours, on a public forum, tend to make me worry about my daughters safety as she becomes ever more independent. You kind of expect it from kids on the playground. But when grown ups start openly spewing such confused bile its hard not to react. 

"Little big man tizzy fit"...just more empty keyboard warrior bullshit isn't it?  You're good at that aren't you!

It's been mildy amusing reading the usual responses from your alpha male mates. It seems nothing much has changed since I would repeat stuff like that as a 13 year old. It's slightly disappointing that the mods have allowed what has been an interesting thread over the years, to degenerate to such a low level of debate. Where once was a largely good natured exchange of differing views, it now seems largely clogged up with you and one or two others endlessly flapping your jaws on your pet peeves. But I suppose clicks mean prizes. 

I'll amend my summary of you to "confused loudmouth prick"  for now shall I?

5 hours ago, Johnsond said:

Nope not at all, they traded a he she oddball freak whom did nothing but slate the country of its birth whilst leaving far more worthy citizens to languish in Russian jails. 

Wow. I've never thought of my gay wheelchair bound daughter as less worthy of consideration than my 6ft 4in straight son. 

Should I reconsider how I treat her(it)?

You ****************ing gobshite prick. 

We've not noticed any difference at all. Sounds like your wood should be plenty dry enough.I reckon you're getting a bit of condensation building up under the polythene. This then drips off to cause a bit of localised reabsorption.  I've had similar issues occsionally when keeping cages outside under tarps over winter. 

On 22/10/2022 at 09:28, Big J said:

 

Isn't that a shame though? I have found it almost impossible over the years to find cutters who were both properly competent and happy to work for someone else. 

 

The issue with running your own business is that inevitably, you end up pulled away from the saws. You're then forced to rely on subcontractors of inconsistent quality and the overall work quality deteriorates. 

 

Really good cutters should be paid really good money. I've paid £240 a day down in Devon (where rates are suppressed) and made good money off the back of those guys. Equally, I have lost money on guys I've paid £80 a day because they've been so bad. 

 

Perhaps some sort of cooperative, profit sharing company would be a way to go. A collective of top notch cutters, machine operators, foresters and timber sellers, working together to do the best job possible where everyone makes a fair and decent wage. So much of the timber industry is driven down to price and price alone. It is (I feel) one of the main reasons there is such inconsistency in the market. Boom and bust.

Driven down to price and price alone. Isn't that just one of the great benifits of a free market global economy? 

If someone can turn as much profit out of something as possible then it's worthwhile, if not then it's neither needed nor necessary. 

I reckon forestry is one of the industries least likely to sustain any sort of cooperative business culture. 

I've know a few people in the industry I would trust not to take advantage. But the majority I come across just want to take as much as they can and give as little as they can. Especially if it means they can get a bigger/better/newer machine etc! Underneath the camaraderie the culture of take as much as you can for yourself is as strong as ever. It starts the very top ime. 

On 21/10/2022 at 10:31, Jig said:

Thank you for reply. Like you said, not much help so far. I have a solid 6 years of full time forestry chainsaw work, yet the last 2 years my Forestry work has been more relaxed with less chainsaw work, and on the books for a well known forestry organisation. I'm wanting to get back into full time felling work as my current job isn't giving me enough excitement or paying enough. Qualifications, 30&31 plus medium and larger tree. I can use hand winches and have worked alongs side harvesters and forwarders. I can comfortably cut to spec, done everything from small thinnings all the way up to clear fell and worked on hourly, day rate, piece work and tonnage. If the timber allows, I can easily fell, dress out, cross cut and stack 15 - 25 ton a day. And if it's huge mature trees then God knows how many times that would be!  Unfortunately, who I have worked for in the past has never wanted to pay more than £100 a day! And when on tonnage, it's very easy for forwarder loads to go walkies, if you know what I mean!? So I have never, ever made the money I should have, even though working my bollocks off! This is why I will only work for a day rate! Also, the day rate has to help cover all my out goings, PPE, new chainsaws, fuel, holidays, public liability etc.... It seems I am asking for a reasonable price, it's nice to get confirmation from other like minded people. Just putting the feelers out so I can be confident to charge this amount when asking around for work.

 

Cheers 👍🏼

Sounds like you should be asking £180/£200 a day. Although I might add the caveat that you will need to jump around between contractors to maintain it. The trouble with this game is the timber doesn't always allow it. I have great volumns in some patches and crap volumes in others. 

Or buy some machinery and jump up a level in the food chain. Then jump up another level and buy you're own standing and cut, extract and market it yourself. If you have the capital to do the latter then that's where the reall money is. 

Cutting direct for estates should allow you to negotiate dayrate for the worst stuff. Cutting for timber buyers will be a different story, it'll be whatever roadside rate the market will allow...

15 minutes ago, Big J said:

I've had a quite a lot of experience running cutters and started out as a hardwood cutter myself. 

It's a minefield, truly. I much prefer working with harvesters as with one exception the only reliable, decent, flexible cutters I knew were in Northumberland and Morayshire, which isn't exactly useful for Devon.

 

Make no mistake, 90% of chainsaw operatives are not going to make the grade. They are either talented and lazy, or talentless and enthusiastic, or worst of all, talentless and lazy. The very good ones normally end up progressing of the saws to run their own teams and very good quality, experienced cutters are left over once the shite is filtered out.

 

The contrast between the best and worst is as stark as to say that you can lose a lot of money on a bad cutter at £80/day and make a lot off a good cutter paying them £250 a day. Production rates can vary 5 fold within the same block, depending on who's cutting.

 

My recommendation is try to find a way of price controlling. Production rate work is difficult to get with hand cutters now, as they are so scarce. So try to use harvesters instead. 

 

Another issue I feel is that there are too many tree surgeons and not enough forestry cutters. Tree surgeons generally don't transition well into forestry as it's a completely different job, requiring much higher production, effort and far more accurate felling. You're felling the timber to sell the product, a fact sometimes lost on those recently having made that transition.

 

For me, I generally always paid £200 a day to my cutters. Most of the guys I used were great and were well worth it. Some took the piss and I never used them again.

 

Either way, I am very glad that I never have to work on hand felled sites again. I'll only be working behind small harvesters, which is a much, much more pleasant gig.

That's pretty much the nub of it. Mech harvesting is wheres it at end of story. I looked at buying into it earlier this year. But looking at the wider UK timber industry I can't see a lot of longterm joy in it. Yes there is a stack of work atm. But once the Adb bonanza is finished in a few years, it'll be a different story. I might get the finance paid off before it's over but its a big might.

The local softwood mill shut this year as it was a money pit. There's softwood sawlog been sitting roadside since the summer near me. And that is after the contractor took a £25 a ton hit on it as suddenly the other big buyer had a no competition. Its just not a sustainable business model. 

There's no way I'm taking on a load of finance at my age just to keep working. And I can stick a few days machine work but anymore than that gets dull and repetitive for me. 

So I'll try and keep going as I am, but the writing is on the wall as far as I'm concerned. 

14 hours ago, IronMike said:

I couldn't tell you meterage unfortunately. We just work on day rate, regardless of site or spec. The top end of the pay is for my experienced cutters, who I know will produce day in day out. They're as fast and efficient as possible on the sites we have. The lower end is for the newer starters who haven't got that speed and efficiency yet.

Ah fair enough. Dayrate work seems very limited around here. Its a roadside piece rate or nothing usually. So keeping tabs on daily volume averages is vital. Aside from the odd roadside winching job or awkward bits and bobs with little merchantable timber. 

Even the various conservation trusts seem to favour mech harvesting now. The lure of a better return and fisa led pressure to kick handcutters out wherever possible, seems to trump the low impact approach. 

You are doing well to get experienced cutters for £160 a day. £180/£200 a day around here now , if you can find anyone at all. 

I've no problem with shunting about on the first run through. It's unavoidable in a hand cut site. Once I've opened up a route in/out its just a case of working backwards and forwards along the edge of cut material. Taking into account the topography and standing understory etc. 

I'm generally in hardwood stuff so there s a lot of variables when felling. 

Wasteing time and energy trying to tip stuff where it really doesn't want to go verses a bit of extra lever pulling. I do find it frustrating when someone makes a stack in a stupid place. Trapped behind uncut Hazel etc. 

I can always extract my own stuff quicker than other peoples as I've always got an idea of how I'll extract it. 

That said, the total lack of cutters mean I usually only ever extract stuff I've cut myself!  

6 hours ago, IronMike said:

I pay my cutters between £120-160 a day I'd say. That's them providing their owne saw and fuel plus all the trimmings. I tend to get quite a few new lads and lasses, so clearly they start towards the lower end but given the world we live in, I think it's not too bad a wage. 

 

The main differences I find are as others have mentioned.... Presentation and standards. The top whack cutters lay it down all day, and everything is stacked in decent heaps and graded off to make my life easier for forwarding. The newer cutters I try to instill confidence in, and tell them in the beginning to remember "low, and slow"!. I'm taking about stumps here when I say low, and slow as in their saw usage. What I really mean is steady, not slow, but it doesnt ryhme as well! I'm trying to teach them to get good at their craft first, then get quick. You can't get super quick and efficient straight out the box. 

 

I'd rather someone was working at a steadier rate, but doing everything well than have someone flying like a bat out of hell and leaving the timber converted in pegs or worse, unsnedded on one side! This literally makes my piss boil as a forwarder driver, having to get out the machine to finish their job off. 

 

I could waffle on for days really. But I'd say anyone looking to get a decent wage and lots of work should strive for the following:

 

Turn up on time, sharpened and ready to go.

Look presentable and not like you've slept in the brash pile!

Keep phone in pocket til break time!

Work quickly and efficiently, stacking where you can without hurting your back.

Process well with accurate hand cutting.

LOW STUMPS!!!!!

 

 

Out of interest, what sort of meterage do you get from a new person on £120 a day? And is the £160 rate for fully experienced cutters, with windblown etc? I find that new cutters generally struggle to cover a oner a day. Which usually means they aren't viable, as they think they should be worth at least £140/£150 a day. Usually because thats what the bloke that trained them said. 

9 hours ago, Retired Climber said:

You only need 5 clients who want a day a week and you essentially have the security of a full time job. I'm not being unrealistic, I've done it myself. The guy who bought my business took it away from tree work and towards fencing and garden maintenance, and now also makes more than the figures quoted. 

 

I'm not really interested in a 'you can't make that gardening / fencing', conversation, because you can. They were just 2 examples, of stuff that's a lot easier than cutting and can make decent money. 

 

A bloke supplying a saw, a truck, and fuel, should not be having to work hard for 150 quid a day.

What a strange reply. The chap didn't ask how much money he could make running a gardening or fencing business. 

Yes it's hard graft for the money. Yes you could walk onto any building site in the UK and earn easier money. Or start a gardening business if you fancy really stupendously easy money! Each to their own. 

Now harvesters have taken the bulk of the work and the fisa nonsense is getting more and more powerful, handcutting is slowly getting squeezed out anyhow. 

On 08/10/2022 at 13:22, Peasgood said:

My missus uses a full box of firelighters and about a cube of kindling to get the fire going. 

Even then it sometimes takes two attempts.

My wife is the best firelighter I know. A  petrol receipt and a couple of old lolly sticks and we're in business! 

8 hours ago, Jig said:

Hi all.

Just wanted to ask, what's the going day rate for a fully ticketed self employed chainsaw operator to do thinnings, clearfells etc...? All my own equipment, pickup truck, public liability etc, provided by me. I think £150 upwards, especially within today's economical climate, is acceptable. What does everyone else think? 

It all depends on how quick and tidy you are. Are you're new to it and only cutting 6/7/8 meters a day? Or do you have a few years under your belt and can double that? 

Are you mowing it down in front of a harvester on dayrate or cutting and stacking in front of the forwarder on a piece rate?  

I've worked with people on £140 a day that have struggled to cut and stack £100 worth of wood a day. I've also worked with people on £180/£200 a day that could cut and stack plenty enough to cover it (although they're rare beasts nowadays!) 

Some jobs it's easy cutting and some jobs are nothing but sweat and aggravation! 

I'd echo those above as regards the viability of the windblown Birch. Get it quick and try and get it under cover if you're not going to use it immediately. 

That said there's a mad panic buy on at the moment, If you've a few wagon loads of processer friendly stuff that's been down a year you'll be holding a trump card. A lad I know paid an eye-watering sum for a load of rubbish from a well known player recently, out of desperation. 

And you don't mention if the landowner wants paying at all? 

Free is a different ball game to paying for it. 

I really wouldn't bother with them. Tried them on a couple of saws but didn't really see any benefits. 

And the decibel level is just really stupid. 

Honestly take a tip from a mug that tried them and save your money. 

Stock 400s/462s and other brand equivalents are fantastic saws without any of this nonsense. 

A decent handwinch and someone with a bit of experience should get that sorted with minimal drama. 

Would definitely avoid working at height in these scenarios. 

Flask of boiling water, small flask of full fat milk, Yorkshire tea, china mug and teaspoon. A perfect cup every time. 

Everyday for decades. Just give the milk flask a scrub with a brush before refilling. 

Gator oils from ebay seem good value. I fine the et40 is about right. Iso150 if I remember correctly.  Quick delivery too. I used to buy by the 210 litre drum but it doesn't seem much cheaper nowadays to buy in bulk. 

Ask him if he remembers the daring duck rescue at Westbury! 

11 hours ago, LGP Eddie said:

This comprehensively pisses all over a Menzi in it’s intended applications, you soon get over the Menzi rose tint once you get one in some UK applications.

The old saying if you want a mess get a 3cx, could be magnified several times over with a Menzi in the wrong conditions!

In the right place absolutely incredible machines and awesome tool carriers.

 

These are literally hand built by the guy, yes you can have an extending dipper if you like, and yes they are street pads that actually work very effectively with little impact even in wet ground due to the fact you can actually angle them to fit the profile of the ground.

 

In use we looked at steel pad and maybe some grouser options, but Callum used to manage to get it to stick to pretty much anywhere in sensible conditions.

 

Price, it’s actually peanuts in the Rail world, and it’s ability to replace manual labour doing track side clearance on day shifts with trains running, put it in another league to alternatives that needed night time or possession working.

 

Hell of a piece of kit, brilliant to operate, it could have been better setup on the Tiltrotator front, but what a Mulching head, and the feeling of using one where the power in reality hardly ever dips.

 

Delivered it’s intended project absolutely brilliantly, no real issues, and could have gone on to do so much more, but that’s a chapter closed in a few good people’s lives.

 

I was lucky enough to get to operate it, got it through the demo for Network Rail and worked alongside Callum on it.

 

Nobody’s ever revisited the concept, but take it from me, it works and in the correct application they are absolutely incredible.

 

 

Eddie.

 

 

 

 

 

 

A Menzi pretty much defeated by a straightforward wet clay field, my LGP Kubota could work on that a week and not put a rut in it.

Horses for courses and Instagram ain’t real world!

 

Forestry lads will laugh and say crack on until the ruts are up to your waist, it doesn’t work like that on third party landowners arable ground involving land agents in new Discovery’s and red trousers!🤦‍♂️

 

 

 

 

 

So this was your long reach then? I was carting the chip away. Callum ran my 461 over! 9

2 hours ago, openspaceman said:

My thoughts too,

 

This is old and tatty on an outing yesterday. Pulling WRC off a slope where no thought had been given to extraction and I'm too old to haul winch wire up hill 50 metres.

Both are over or near 17000 hrs now. Although one has a replacement block and one has a Siszu combine engine. They're pretty tatty compared to a lot of gear about now. And need a bit of looking after and nursing along. 

But they're paid for and I'm happy to plod on with them!

I see plenty of shiny low houred gear in bits in the local agri workshops. Only a County would stand any chance of tempting me now. But I'm skint... 

2 hours ago, LGP Eddie said:

Yes the very same,

 

It was perhaps deemed as it’s first day out on hire, but I did the Demo myself with it prior to it being approved and the machine manufacturer did training for some on it.

 

Likewise it was Callum’s first day on hire, not the first time he’d sat in it.

 

There were no cable strike incidents I recall, but yes Rail is an absolute disgrace in terms of scrap lying about and cable seemingly anywhere.

I learnt a long time ago you don’t just grab a pile off a slope with a long reach and head off, you’ve got to tease it off the slope and watch for any black snakes on the bank before putting some lift/speed on.

 

Like anything it has it’s place, but Rail is notoriously difficult to educate from anything that hasn’t been done this way for the last twenty years.

 

 

Eddie.

 

Thankfully they started on an embankment. It was a bum twitcher watching it slipping and sliding along in a cutting. With the open running rail at the bottom of the slope. 

He did get pretty good on it as I remember. 

Yes I had a few close shaves with cables. Mainly at night. We would fell everything into the cutting and work through it with a grab fed. Like you say you learn to pick it up carefully until you know just what you've got. 

Is that the "Leveliser"? If so here it is on its first day out in the UK. I had the dubious pleasure of cossing it as we were doing the felling. Typical rail job. Lots of access issues etc. Not really suited to  UK rail as they like to leave big lumps of scrap rail in the way everywhere and insist in leaving safety critical cables strewn all over the place!  The first time Callum had sat in it I found out later. 

Sorry I can't help you on the free wood front. But if you get stuck we're doing 1m3 tipped @£85 or 2m3 @£160. All locally cut (by us) hardwood and ready to use. 

Radstock based and (as much as I'd love to charge it) we would go out of business at £100 a m3! 

Old and tatty but still useful.