LogDesperate

Thanks to everyone’s input and comments in this thread Sorry , it looks like I have upset some people along the journey, was not my intention Thanks to those who could see where I was coming from and issues trying to highlight , for their support. To others , still have not figured out what those points were , well , thanks for participating still , whether I agreed with your opinions or not. Admins , you feel free to delete my account , so that will hopefully help dismiss the “ troll “ theory . Bye and all the best

That is very reassuring ... Oh sure, " customer from hell " , right ?

Guessing you meant " wind up " , I certainly am not " wined up " ! Well, perhaps a little in the evenings Wow After all my posts ( because I really have nothing better to do with my time ) , conspiracy theory continues !

I am in Essex ( and have been for past 30 years ) Reason I said Hertfordshire, because we are near enough to its border and technically London as well , I think enough clues there so you can work out roughly where approximate area is

Woodworks , just looked at your website . OMG™ ! Look at them beauties , that’s what I call logs I might move to Devon , can I come and live in your barn ? Essex boys and girls , post your log business websites or pictures please ! ( And Hertfordshire ! )

Really? Interpretation? LoL I thought principle is the same . You have goods , money changes hands , goods are SOLD You can call yourself , merchant , supplier , dealer , seller , flogger or whatever else. Principle is the same , and same ethics should apply , if you have pride in the work you do or products you sell.

You are not the only one , on the suprise front ! Hence this thread

Steve ? I stated this few times already , I am not saying log suppliers all here or elsewhere are the same , maybe not even single one of the official registered users / posters here. Not my intention to “ brand “ all the same. I already know many fantastic people here that have integrity and ethics , I can tell The “ cowboy “ types are most likely mainly the lurker ones , which you don’t hear a peep out of , but I am sure they are around here and watching / reading ! By the way , I don’t and have not always bought my logs from the “beer money unemployed chancers “ . I actually don’t always go for the absolute possible cheapest , “ cheap is dear “ Some of my purchases were made with people who had web presence , what appeared to be a reputable and reliable business , with similar results. And where does it end anyway ? Can’t buy the cheapest , don’t buy medium priced . Do we always have to assume it is ALWAYS the most expensive one that we must buy if we want quality ? And even with that is there a guarantee ? I think it all boils down to ethics. I want what is advertised / promised . I don’t mind crap , if price is right , sure , why not ? It is my decision to make . Tell me it’s crap leylandii for proper cubic meter , seasoned for 2 years , £20 a cube delivered , I might be tempted !

Sure , I can have “ intelligent “ debates / discussions with every single one of the suppliers I had pleasure of making their acquaintances , every time I had a thing or two to say about the quality and/or quantity of the goods , that would probably earn me eventually the claim to fame 3 minute window in Crimestoppers ! I have done my fair share of the complaints, with few of the suppliers in the past , in me youth , thankfully without becoming that statistic. Now , the reason I am here “ bitching “ , as you very delicately put , I believe words are mightier than the sword ! Trying to put my opinions across and share my experiences here within the biggest platform I could think of, perhaps at least make some of the culprits understand and change their ways , who think the customers are mugs , is that a bad thing ? “ Bitching “ here , my voice ( and others ) is heard little louder and to a wider audience .

Call me TK Gary ! I am not that hard to please

No , I did not. My blood pressure is more important to me than few scaffold plank " logs " If the whole load was like that of course , that is another story. However , suffice to say he did not get my business again. Besides , I could just picture how that complaint phone call would have gone. Me .. " Hello Mr Log Supplier , I have found some Scaffold Tower Plank Logs in with me load , are they supposed to be in there or accidentally fell in to the bag while you were travelling near a building site perhaps ? " Him .. " Well , ya did not ask , I did not feel the need to tell you , they are good hardwood , will burn great mate , goodbye "

Don’t get me wrong , there is nothing puts a bigger grin on me face than a cheeky softwood log or two , in what is sold as a hardwood only load ! I welcome it In fact , I will tell you what is even cheekier . Few years back I ordered a “ load “ , when I found out there were at least 20 – 30 scaffold tower plank pieces cut up and included kindly in with my load , I said to myself I said “ Now , that IS Cheeky that is ! “ and burst out laughing so hard, crapped me pants in the process

I prefer TK instead of John , that’s what my friends call me ! To all who think I was / am a potential Kiln dried crate importer to UK , do you really think I would come in here to try to sell ? Especially if I was trying to convert end users , if this is what you think I am trying to do with my posts ? I would target End user forums for that , plenty of them online , and tell them how great my product is , come buy them from me or here is a distributor. OR , I would come here , as I did and just say , “ People , we are exporters from such and such , this is the product , this is the price , how many crates can we put you down for sir ? “ Where am I ? OK, so , that was one small delicate area , I was not entirely sure how to respond to , hence delay , I was not ignoring it. To be perfectly honest it is irrelevant which area I am in , I have been expressing truthful opinions and experiences that I have had. I have not said I have exhausted ALL my options in my area , so yes , probably still more I should / could try . It is just the fact that so many not so great experiences in a row , for what should be a simple purchase , on a product that really should not be complicated , nor over the top expensive , I guess I felt the need to come here and vent little and share , to see what the industry is thinking as well. Also , it is not just about me , “ saving the poor soul and help him out issue “ necessarily . I already guessed there are problems in this industry , as far as quality and quantity is concerned , which some of your members acknowledge and confirm. Between so many of you , majority of your industry probably actively participate in these forums , can you not get together / put heads together and come up with some sort of solution to at least volume issue ? Someone mentioned, according to Trading Standards , selling / using cubic metre measurement is a no no , but to use “ loads “ as a unit of measurement . I am not disputing this , but can someone provide some links as I have had a quick look but unable to verify this? If true , perhaps it is a strange old British law that stayed from middle ages like .. “ You’re not allowed to be drunk in a pub “ ? If this is the case , it needs to be challenged and changed “ thou shall not sell logs by universally accepted volume measurements , thus let it be sold as a load “ ?? Here is an idea for example , if indeed metric measurements are a no go ( research will need to be done on this still ) , come up with a universally accepted new measurements for log industry , call it “ dumpy crate “ or whatever you wish , which had specific measurements , fill it loose to exact level , let that be known as the measurement , so everyone would know what it is when / if I order 2 of those , I know what loose total volume is , when people order it in up in Highlands , it is same unit as in Wales or in central London I don’t know , or something , its just the bag or load etc methods just not cutting it. I understand , yes, it is a physically demanding job , you need machinery , you need space . Well every business has its challenges and difficulties. And British produce , does it really have to be so expensive , compared to imports ? Take tree surgery for example , logs are your by product , you have already charged accordingly for felling etc. I had one tree felled and the bill was good few hundred a while back So , technically you have the logs for free , if it is a decent tree , one you can sell the logs , what do you need to do , cut / split and dry ( whatever method ) You are saying you cannot compete with these “ exporters “ , who need to BUY the logs , do same processes as you need to do , cut / split , dry , not to mention supply them in crates ( which would cost a few quid as well ) , then SHIP them from hundreds ( thousands ? ) miles away ( would have thought big cost ) and sell them cheaper than here ? Sure even if the labour was free where they are coming from , how long does it take for you to produce 1 cubic metre logs , with all the Pro equipment you guys have 15 minutes flat or less ? I know I can probably do it in around 2 hours with my laughable but capable ! equipment So labour does not really come up to much surely. So , have fair but competitive price , supply fair volume and quality , have satisfied customers and hold on to them , that way un-satisfied frustrated buyers don’t have the need to look elsewhere . I thought it is better to remain anonymous for obvious reasons, includes pinpoint location where I am from. But anyway , I am from sunny Essex I better Log-Off for now . See what I did there ? Was that a pun ?!

Gary , oh Gary , you were quick to post in this thread saying got bored and did not bother to read my first post in its entirety , you come back with a sarcastic second post ( most probably not even read others either ) , but I still like you ! You are quick to post but alas with little to no substance I have four words for you . “ Ignorance is a bliss “ … no offense . Which applies to few others here as well , who appear to be in denial Please read all my posts , and you will probably get the answer you are looking for. But sure , if I were to do log trade , I would do it with pride , ethics , supply quality products which are fit for purpose and fair quantity / volume . If you are a log seller or whatever business you are in , you do what you are good ( hopefully you are ) at , and I will do what I am good at , I have no intention of starting log trade and steal business from you guys !

Looks what you guys did to me , now I have the boss key ready at work sneak and send replies , I think I am hooked ! Thanks for the compliment! I don't think I am that clever Lots of equipment ?? I have a log splitter that cost me £150 , 8 years ago , Electric Bosch Chainsaw , £50 I think it was , couple of axes, I swear that is it OK, I feel I need to come clean on the 20 years thing, maybe it is more like 17 , and out of those 17 years perhaps 2 or 3 years I did not need to buy logs in . So now , does that make it little more plausible? I can assure you it is not a wind up … I have 50-60 hour work weeks , trust me I would not ordinarily bother with this kind of stuff , but I hoped you guys could see the frustration and listen to a buyers experiences and perhaps a find a common ground within community to address and resolve , since I think this is the biggest platform in UK that Tree Surgery and related product suppliers gather and discuss , what better place is there ? Because I like to sit by the stove to have a few cigarettes in the evenings , open the door let the smoke sucked up so room doesn’t stink , poke and admire the fire at the same time ! I can do without the ones spit in my eye. “I have had oak, ash, sycamore alĺ spit. You just cannot guarantee it “ Have you tried “ seasoning “ them properly ? Those varieties should not spit , if properly dry. I suppose any log will spit , I am not referring to spitting as in once in a blue moon. Have you tried burning chestnut or pine .. ?

Sure, I can . I have in the past , still do occasionally when I either get free wood ( from a friend who has some sort off right of way access to a woodland etc. I don’t really know the ins and outs ) , he gets the wood as an agreement , when they come to do the management / coppicing. My logs do come out perfectly fine yes, even with my Mickey Mouse hydraulic splitter and my 20 quid log / saw horse and my trusty Bosh Electric chainsaw ! , end result would put the logs I received in last delivery and some others in the past to shame, produced by the professionals in the trade. Certainly won’t pay the same amount for cordwood , as some suppliers appear to charge same or very similar money for same volume as split and “ seasoned “ ( perhaps it is much easier to distinguish tree species when in cord form , so it is more difficult to deceive , compared to the split “ mixed “ loads , where anything seems to go , my theory anyway ) My question to you is this. Why produce own logs? I do it occasionally for fun / bit of exercise, and for the love of logs ! I have no intention of turning my back garden to a full blown log yard / barn setup to dry 10 -15 m3 minimum , to process and store ( for 2 years minimum proper seasoning ) , I don’t think it would sit well with me better half. If I am ordering and paying for cut/split/seasoned logs , which are supposed to be ready to burn , this is what I expect to receive , or is this such an unreasonable expectation ? As I stated few times , it is mission impossible to get accurate measurements , as far as the volume is considered , until after it is dumped on your drive and once stacked. I had deliveries in the past , they would not even mention the size of what the vehicle it will turn up is , it was just called a “ load “ ! So I can’t argue with someone over an unknown measurement he promised to deliver and I can’t sit and cry about it afterwards. A “ load “ can simply mean 10 logs ? Well , it is a load , isn't it , can you argue ? The quality of the logs , likewise , you need to handle them , see what is what when you are stacking ( that is if you know little bit about wood ) , the dryness , well , no supplier will hang about if you say , wait let me split couple of of your logs before I pay you , see if they are worthy . Fist fight ? £100 - £200 and thereabouts is not worth the aggro and high blood pressure , if they are crap unseasoned logs , they will sit in one corner and I will use them up eventually. They just don’t get my business again , but I suppose suppliers such as those would not rely on repeat customers I would presume.

I am so sorry to have bored you Gary ! I don’t need my logs laser-cut ! I just need them to be within reason , size-wise reasonably uniform , if I am quoted 25cm length , would you not say 30cm + is a bit much ? I can even fit 30cm long ones in my Morso , if they are not absurdly wide , it is those 25 - 30cm cube ( approx ) giants are the ones which are the problem ! If I did not have access to my hydraulic 5T log splitter ( Mickey Mouse one I know , I have not come here to show off me equipment ! ) , I would probably throw them in my green compost bin. Especially ones with knots , not to be attempted with an axe , let us not be heroes ! I am close to 50 , although reasonably fit , would probably not bother with them. I have re-split , I would say , over half of the lot of my last delivery. Is that really something to be expected of 25cm size “ standard “ logs ? What if the customer was 80 year old , heart attack when he sees the logs ?

Hi Thanks for the link . I am aware of calculations on loose vs stacked Apologies to the others for jumping from literally from the top of the posts , right down to the bottom , which is the same person. I intended to do it systematically from top to bottom ( not sure how long it will take me ) , as there are some posts in between I really would like to respond to ! The point is not knowing what is in these loose “loads “ or various size bags , this is one of the BIGGEST problems , it is not good enough , please refer to my first post You see it in a crate , delivered on the lorry , tightly stacked , volume calculation is easy and transparent. You can work out the volume in 30 seconds flat. This is not so easy to do it with bags or pickup “ loads “ as majority ( in my area anyway ) will not give you clear-cut answers how full these will turn up , so you cannot convert an unknown amount to solid stacked volume figure , untill they are dumped on your drive and once you have stacked them in your log-store.

Maybe I should clarify , the only reason I mentioned kiln dried imports , because I assumed they were the only ones they you see nowadays all over the internet , also from what I have been reading , that was the conclusion I came to I am more than happy to buy British , in a similar way produced quality / price. I am not after the “ cheapest “ stuff as some suggested . Stacked crates are appealing because of volume calculations , also knowing exact type of wood etc. Due to my ongoing bad experiences , frankly I am not willing to take more chances on these unknown quality / quantity “ loads “ Anyone here supply similar crate setup , genuine British produce with national delivery ? If there is not a massive price difference , sure, why not ? I also did say , I don’t even care if they are kiln dried , prefer proper air dried . I saw the imported stuff as absolute last resort as an option .

Thread is on fire !! Wow , 85 replies in one day , was not expecting that When I saw there were like 70 posts today at a quick glance , I had to leave work early to read the replies and start sending some responses , logs are more important than work ! Some supporters , some blamers , some suggesting give up on logs and use oil , in a FireWood forum ! , nice mix , I like it To be perfectly honest with you , when I said it would probably my last post , I thought I would mainly get the harsh negative responses , I did not really want to get into too much pointless debates. However , seeing there are some of your fellow community members even themselves acknowledging there are some issues and room for improvement , I also felt I owe it to them to come and thank them for understanding the points I was trying to highlight , I won’t name names thank X , thank Y , this it not Oscars , I think we know who they are. If you guys are up for an open and honest debate , so am I ! I understand I walked into the Lions Den and tried to make some points that some of you did not like , I also understand the comradery of course , I get it , me , being the “ outsider “ , coming here criticising the log industry and its ways , just who do I think I am ! I can honestly say , my first post was my true experiences this year alone , but in a nutshell reflects similarities going back almost 20 years . Either quantity or quality issues , occasionally both , such as my latest purchase. I never implied every single log supplier is the same , I am sure there lots of Diamond Geezers and Gals out there providing high quality logs at decent prices , perhaps it is only my misfortune that I have yet to make their acquaintance , in my area , yet. I will read some more of the posts ( only read around 40 so far quickly ) , gather my thoughts and start posting some responses back .

Not an arborist or log producer / supplier here , simply a consumer ( or certainly not a Kiln Dried crate exporter to the UK , impression which you may get after reading ) First post , most likely will be the last Below are just my experiences , not indented to come here and flame , just wanted to share. Important : Please do not take offence I will tell you why I will be buying kiln dried “ EU “ imported kiln dried crates , which seem to have gained popularity recent years and my reasons behind it but I have a feeling many people in the same boat as me I have been burning logs for past 20 years and I am sad to tell you I think with one single exception, I have never bought logs from the same supplier, as a repeat customer. Pretty much every purchase , some sort of bitter experience , to the point it has become an ordeal to look again when the log store runs low , what new sellers have emerged in the area and keep fingers crossed they will supply what they promise Few recent purchases below and disappointments . . Which reflect not only this years disappointments but 20 years of log buying as a whole. I built my own log store which takes exactly 4 m3 stacked volume logs . First enquiry of the season was with the only second attempt to buy from same local log supplier ( the first was a bit of disappointment due to volume issues and quality of the logs but I hoped for the best and was willing to give another try in view of supporting “ local “ businesses ) Even though making the point very clear 4 m3 stacked volume of logs is what is required and paying for it ( £275 I believe he charged ) end result what I got once logs were delivered and stacked , 2.5 m3.. Now I understand loose volume is difficult to gauge vs stacked , surely there is a big discrepancy here ? I was not naive to expect 4m3 exact as it was ordered ( although it would have been a refreshing change ) but certainly not 40% less Volumes offered / described by majority of log suppliers are vague , misleading and borderline amusing. Scoop load , Pickup load , tonne bag , builders bag , bulk bag , dumpy bag , trailer load , transit load , list goes on ...... We are in 21st century , people expect little more clarity here , want to know what they are getting exactly and how much of it . We are not familiar with what exact volume of your pickup truck load , even if we did know , it is unclear whether it will be delivered heaped , level or under , so clearly a pointless measurement unit. And the wonderful bags , same again , rather than vague description of bag types , we need to know volume , those bags vary in sizes 50cm , 70cm , 90cm ? Up in the air , likewise full bag , filled up to 3 quarters full , what is it ? When is he last time you walked into a petrol station and filled your car with non-universal unit of a bucket which its size differ from station to station ? How difficult is it to quote reasonably accurate volume in universally accepted measurement rather than above? Had numerous suppliers claim 90cm x 90cm x 90cm is a cubic meter “ cube “ Second experience of this year ( since I had to top up my log store unexpectedly early , due to being short changed 1.5m3 beginning of season ) Look online , come across the another site offering “ quality “ split seasoned firewood , cubic metre bag , £50 a bag , doesn’t sound bad right ? OK, let’s try them ! Enquiry on the phone first Q) What size are the bags please? A)I don’t know exactly , they are “ big “ Q) What is in the mix please, all hardwood and / or what species ? A) 90% hardwood , might be few softwood Q) I definitely do not want stuff that spits, pine etc , can you guarantee? A) Yes of course minimal softwood and no spitters Q) What size of the logs please? A) Standard 25cm long Great , right ? Order placed ! 3 bags delivered , 85cm jobs ( approx. 80% full) , clearly not a “ cube “ , nowhere near it , not difficult to measure volume , height x width x depth =Volume . Even all mobile phones have calculators nowadays, it does not require a science degree to multiply 3 numbers to work out volume. Sizes , he did say 25cm long , majority are approx 25cm , but I would say at least 20% 30cm long Also , when you quote split logs , one would assume they are split in proportional thickness/width to the length of the logs , ie. say 10cm or 15cm max wide , right ? Errr , no , wrong What he failed to mention however , was some of the logs are as wide as they are long ,25cm cube , I would say 30% of the total load . Now , I am one of the lucky owners of a Morso Squirrel ( I think they are fantastic ) , which is small but thankfully exceptionally deep chamber , but some of these lumps can no way fit . Even if they did , there is no way you could burn them anyway as that would leave zero room for adequate embers underneath . So I had to get my trusty log splitter out yesterday and re-split his “ split “ logs , some of them up to 3 times to get usable size logs out of the lumps Quality of the wood ? Simply put , errr , terrible. Covered in dried mud / soil , cannot see the grain , looking dull grey / mud colour , churned in mud field to give the look / impression they are well seasoned / aged look and feel ? The mix ? Oh , don’t get me started ! I would say at least 30% minimum pine varieties 20% other softwoods , I am no log expert but I know when I see hardwood. The moisture levels of these quality “ seasoned “ logs ? Well, I happened to have my trusty moisture meter nearby , so let us take a measurement ! Measurements are taken from inside after I re-split . Admittedly the softwoods were not too bad , as expected , most around 27% inside , not ideal but they will burn eventually , they won’t sizzle at least ! But hardwood ones , not one single piece under 30% , found few as high as 40% . Now , these Kiln dried crates , can I be blamed to say , this is where I will be spending my money on from now on? Uniform size , tightly packed on crates , you know exactly what stacked volume you will be ( hopefully ) getting. You know exact wood species will be supplied Are they expensive ? Not really , I have seen online retailers doing them for as low as £220 for 2 m3 delivered nationally , for Oak , Oak/Birch or Ash crates. To be honest , as far as the pure volume comparison I think it is probably even better value than the industry “ standard “ bags or truck loads etc.. I am not even fussed about it being kild dried , as I understand they will soak up moisture and come to more or less same level as properly air dried logs in couple of weeks. All I want to know what I am getting and exactly how much of it. Now , as I stated at the beginning , this is not a flame or personal attacks , purely my bad experiences and wanted to share If however , you are one of my suppliers , or ones like it , I am sure you would know who you are , it is time to change these silly practices , before you lose alot more of your customers to this new emerging Kiln dried import competition . People are not silly .