Lucan

10 hours ago, Steve Bullman said:

And thank you @benedmonds for prompting me into the actions I will take in the coming days 

There are quite a few on here that remind me of the days of Matelot and Vesp, spending all of their time on the politics and news threads, with the occasional token post about grass cutting to seem relevant.

Fast-forward to 2020/21 and you have those come for advice on what cc of chainsaw to buy and then stay for the COVID conspiracies. Maybe a limit on how often you can post on such topics and they would soon lose interest and go somewhere else. 

Then there are also those that don't work in the industry but seem to have an opinion on everything and assume everyone wants to hear it. Back in the day there were a lot more threads from professionals looking for advice from other professionals which resulted in some really good threads. That doesn't seem to happen as much anymore.

We have a similar but slightly smaller barn (25mx9m) of which about half is for our own firewood use.

Guttering is very important. Recently lost part of the guttering and as a result all it takes is the slightest bit of wind to blow all the rain from the roof into the barn (in effect making the inside few feet wetter than outside).

While having a gap at the foot of the cladding will increase airflow, a counter arguement is that it will also allow leaves and other vegetation to be blown in, which will sit under your pallets restricting airflowing and rotting away. Far better to sacrifce some airflow for a dry and clean floor. We have a small wall made from breeze blocks around which works well (due to original use for lambing).

I would be reluctant to leave the gable ends open like that. Firstly because a lot of rain can get the sides, and secondly much prefer to be able to close a gate or door. Even though wouldn't be completely theft proof still might be useful for insurance purposes.

For maximising firewood storage instead of building a road around the outside I would run the access inside the barn against the near/open side. Then build a smaller lean-to on the outside, this could be used for storing logs ready to be processed. This is because not sure how well a 12m deep firewood stack would dry.

On 21/08/2020 at 23:38, Nickb123 said:

Hi guys I’m nick pleased to meet you all 

 

me and my friend have been thinking of starting a firewood business we have as follows 

 

large 30m x 20m barn (rent free) 

losds and loads of outdoor space 

£20k-£25k start up budget 

5t bobcat 

tipper truck 3.5 tonne

large tipping trailers 

 

here are my questions 

 

where would we source the trees to process? 
 

how much would a half decent processing plant cost ? 

 

we would be able to go 3/6 months without any wages from the company until we had reinvested all the money we earnt

 

we aren’t expecting to become rich out the job but we are both hard working honest lads who want to try and get on in life 

 

any info/advice links to equipment would be most welcomed 

 

please give both good and bad sides of the story 

 

thanks nick 

In short very unlikely.

The impression is that you are looking to create a full-time business paying two people a modest wage (say £25k each). Margins in firewood are low, so to be able to take out the equivalnt of £50k a year in wages you need to be selling huge quanitites. Given that the average punter only buy 1-2m3 a year, you would be talking about 1000s of customers in your area. Those customers aren't just going to appear out of nowhere, you would have to tempt them away from their existing firewood suppliers. While you might hope that you can undercut the opposition in price due to the free barn and existing machinery, you might be dissapointed. I would imagine that 9 out of 10 firewood suppliers have some sort of competitive advantage (either other agri types in a similar position as yourself, or arb or forestry guys with access to free or cheap timber). As a result your competitive advantage isn't really an advantage, it just puts you on the same playing field as the others.

The danger is a lot of people just focus on the production side and expect the firewood to sell itself. I would suggest spending more time on the market research side before any investing, so how many other suppliers in your area? what type of product (e.g. kiln)? what price? how delivered (loose, bagged, crates)? etc. Then see if there is actually a space for you and how you can compete and differentiate yourself.

In the UK it seems that firewood is viable either as a part-time business that runs alongside another enterprise, or go big as a national supplier. Fitting somewhere in the middle is rare.

I have an old swedish (Husqvarna) wood oven that I am thinking about installing into my kitchen I am currently buidling in UK. The installation would be a standard set-up for such ovens in Swedish households (see photos, 'luftspalt' is airgap).

However as these are not common in the UK I am wondering if there is any issue with UK building regs and such a set-up, or if anyone has had expereince with similar style installations?

Thanks

Given the direction consumer demand is going I would imagine this sort of set up would sell well. All the packaging is natural matrials so can be composted or used as kindling.

12 hours ago, Steven P said:

 

A full days fuel in that? We'll burn that before breakfast! nce idea though and I like the bag thing

Poor wording on my part, I meant the canvass bag holds a days worth of firewood. It holds about a 1/3 a barrow bag (anymore and would struggle to carry onehanded). The bucket holds 2/3rds of that when full and the remaining stays in the bag in the porch until around 6pm when empty that in the bucket and get another load from the woodshed.

I find it's enough firewood for a 8kw stove to keep a single glazed, single storey, 2 bed stone cottage at 20-24 all day.

I use an old metal washing tub bowl. It looks the part, holds a days worth of wood and doesnt allow any debris to fall through. The tub is just for storing though, I use one of these to carry the logs in as can carry it one handed: Esschert Canvas Fireplace bag. The box for the kindling is a cheap £5 IKEA job: Knagglig pine box.

So one year on, any changes in pension/retirement planning?

On 05/12/2019 at 21:01, the village idiot said:

Sycamore is not considered a true native species of the UK. It made the mistake of arriving onto our shores a little too late to appease the boffins who came up with the classification. A lot of woodland managers cannot abide Sycamore and will pull out any saplings that dare to poke their head above the humus. Personally I don't have any particular grudge against it. Sycamore has been around long enough for many species to have become adapted to make use of it, including us humans. Sycamore is a good firewood, a nice carving wood and is highly sought after as a veneer. Rippled Sycamore is used to make violin and cello backs and commands an extremely premium price.

 

Sycamore does tend to get a little dominant if not kept in check. It seeds prodigiously and casts a dark shade which inhibits the growth of other species. Managed well though it can form a welcome part of your woodland mix, and we might well be very glad of it once our Ash populations are decimated.

 

If you want some bedtime reading on the biodiversity value of sycamore in UK woodlands: The ecology and biodiversity value of sycamore (acer pseudoplatanus L) with particular reference to Great Britain

8 hours ago, the village idiot said:

Just a quick flash forward to a couple of pictures from today. 

 

It was a lovely morning when we first got to the Wood:

 

 

 

We are coppicing Ash in a compartment at the moment. This picture will give you an idea of the sort of size a lapsed coppice Ash can get to.

 

Steve is not a small chap.

 

Are you coppicing the lapsed stand in the photo, and if so do you expect it to regrow? We have a few lapsed coppices the same size but are hesitant of coppicing as concerned they won't survive.

Enjoying the thread and the nice structure to your posts. A mix of first half educational then second about your own experiences. Would make a good book/memoir perhaps.

5 hours ago, Alycidon said:

There was a link posted to an FC website a few years ago but the FC page no longer exists,  hence my mail.

 

A

You mean the 'Wood as Fuel: Technical Supplement for Fuel Suppliers'? Should come up through Google

Alternatively there are some free copies of the 'UN FAO: Wood fuels Handbook' online which should help.

1 hour ago, Witterings said:

I haven't set a budget as buy cheap buy twice ... that said I'm not about to start felling trees for a living just want something good and reliable .... I wouldn't have thought for my purposes I'd need to go over £250 but if I can get away with less and it's decent would go for that.

For that budget I would suggest the Makita ea4300 over the 135 or 181, can pick it up for £235 (plus spare chain) from Fastfix.

6 minutes ago, Big J said:

Ooh, that's expensive! But thanks for the link.

 

I've been chatting to Bryan Elliot of Devon Forestry Consultants about E. Nitens. He lives and breathes Eucalyptus, by all account.

Might cost a bit but may be worth it comparing it to the outlay on your project (and that's not just because an old colleague is one of the authors).

For example it talks about the growth rate, soil requirements, also the poor frost tolerance of E.nitens, such as the trial at Thetford were it failed completely, and how important the provenance of the seedlings is with regards to such tolerance.

23 minutes ago, Big J said:

This is a great thread. Really sad to see the amount of ash that has been grown, as no doubt it's now dead.

 

We're going to be planting 2.2 acres with eucalyptus nitens in spring, which I intend to intesively manage to maximise yield. The field is at 110m ASL, south facing, flat and gently sloping, sandy ground, well drained.

 

I'm extremely interested to see what kind of growth rate we'll get. 10-12m at 4 years old seems doable. We'll fertilise before planting too.

Interesting project. If you've not already I would recommend a read of this paper: The potential for Eucalyptus as a wood fuel in the UK (Leslie et. al., 2014).

29 minutes ago, richy_B said:

That's some interesting data. 

 

So something more akin to a large scale move away from land inefficient agricultural activities such as sheep farming to woodland could deliver the best target results. 

This analysis might be of interest to you and the OP;

Long Term Carbon Account for Forestry at Eskdalemuir

It looked at the long term carbon impact of a change of land use from upland sheep farming to conifer forestry in a Scottish farm.

I think there is some misunderstanding about how woodlands store carbon. The main store is not in the trees but in the soil. See the graph from Dewar and Cannel (1992)

Obviously if planting the potential to store carbon in the soil depends on the previous land use. If replanting a forest, organic soils or peatland than there would be little or negative storage, however if planting on agricultural land or heathland than there is substantial build up which remains even after clear fell harvesting, as the graph shows.

On 16/08/2019 at 09:58, benedmonds said:

Does anyone have any links to upto date information or papers.

 

I have a client who wants to plant enough trees to offset 1 ton carbon per year. 

 

Cannell 1999 estimates averaged out over 100 years  you would need 42 widely spaced oak trees or 0.37ha of conifers over 55 years.. 

 

First, I wouldn't worry about Cannell's papers being out of date. The methodology is still sound.

Second, although species is important, there are other factors that can be just as, if not more important such as yield class (Bateman and Lovett, 2000) and forest management (Jandl et al., 2007).

For specific values and figures (and general reading) I would recommend;

• The social value of carbon sequestered in Great Britain's woodlands (Brainaird et al., 2009)
• Carbon sequestration in the trees, products and soils of forest plantations: an analysis using UK examples (Dewar and Cannell, 1992)
• Long term effects of whole tree harvesting on soil carbon and nutrient sustainability in the UK (Vanguelova et al., 2010)
• The carbon pool in a British semi-natural woodland (Patenaude et al., 2003)
• Carbon storage and sequestration in the forests of Northern Ireland (Cannell et al., 1996)
• Estimating and valuing the carbon sequestered in softwood and hardwoodtrees, timber products and forest soils in Wales (Bateman and Lovett, 2000)
• Sitka spruce (Picea sitchensis) forests in Atlantic Europe: changes in forest management and possible consequences for carbon sequestration (Mason and Perks, 2011)
• Carbon  pools and sequestration in forest ecosystems in Britain (Cannell and Milne, 1995)
• How strongly can forest management influence soil carbon sequestration? (Jandl et al., 2007)

In short though I believe the summary from Dewar and Cannell (1992) is still applicable today;

      "If the objective is to store carbon rapidly in the short term and achieve high carbon storage in the long term, Populus plantations growing on fertile land (2.7 m spacing, 26-year rotations, Yield Class 12) were the best option examined. If the objective is to achieve high carbon storage in the medium term (50 years) without regard to the initial rate of storage, then plantations of conifers of any species with above-average Yield Classes would suffice. In the long term (100 years), broadleaved plantations of oak and beech store as much carbon as conifer plantations. Mini-rotations (10 years) do not achieve a high carbon storage."

1 hour ago, Mull said:

Judith Curry gets no media coverage?

Just the other day she was found to be the 4th most visible in terms of media coverage of all climate change speakers (out of the 750). In fact deniers and skeptics get 50% more media visibility than scientists (source). The BBC as a perfect example of this lack of editorial rigor.

She has also testified before the House and Senate on multiple occasions.

She also doesn't say it's all a hoax BTW.

Apart from that your analysis is spot on.

Derbyshire man refuses to leave town facing flood disaster saying it's 'fuss about nothing' and 'health and safety gone mad'

Would of loved to see this guy around during Pompeii.

Also not sure the woman who says that if the dam does burst she'll just walk up the hill quite understands how 1.3m m3 of water works.

26 minutes ago, nepia said:

Did none of you watch 'Chris Packham; Aspergers and me'?  I don't ask you to like the guy but cut him some slack for Heaven's sake; doing TV stuff on a subject he believes in is the polar opposite to what his condition wants him to do.

Lastly, please don't take the above as defence of his recent shooting crows shenanigans.  I'm just looking at the person.

Whilst I disagree his views on countryside management (shooter myself), I still respect that his passion and care for UK wildlife is genuine, just has different opinions on how to get there. Personally couldn't hate and wish anyone ill for that.

But then again it's a sign of the times we live in I guess.

4 hours ago, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

If only there was a blindingly obvious, relatively easily implemented, tried & tested, demonstrably affective system of controlling the number, quality and term of residence granted already in use elsewhere in the world which could be simply copied and rolled out without any significant effort....

 

I guess, until some simple sense and honesty  is applied... we’ll have to carry on pretending that a points based immigration system isn’t the blindingly obvious way to go....

8 minutes ago, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

With a points based immigration system they could all be.

Bit confused why you keep going on about why the UK should adopt a points based immigration system, considering the fact that the UK already does adopt a points based migration system and has done for over 10 years?

Especially confusing considering how under the points based system, non-EU net migration has steadily risen from 150,000/yr in 2013 to 261,000 in 2018, compared to EU net migration (free movement) at only 57,000 last year. So 82% of net migration is already through our points based system, but applying the same system to the remaining 18% is the "blinding obvious" answer? The claim that it is a "demonstrably affective system of controlling the number" is a bit questionable.

7 hours ago, Chrissy said:

can't quite work out where they get the 15 billion figure from

The figure comes from;

• £2.7bn for safety felling roadside trees
• £1.6bn for safety felling urban trees
• £4bn for woodland ecosystem loss
• £5.3bn for non-woodland ecosystem loss
• Rest is from safety felling of railway line trees, replanting, etc

7 hours ago, Gary Prentice said:

Several years ago our LA were estimating a cost of £10 million just for highway trees and LA trees within falling distance of the road. I'm pretty sure that they've revised that figure upwards due to under-estimating the percentage of ash in the population.

Considering there is an estimated 4m ash trees within falling distance of a road, of which around 35% are under public ownership, that does seem like an underestimation.

2 hours ago, difflock said:

30 is a significent %age to survive, I could live with that figure, thanks.

Figure has been updated and now 95% is the expected mortality rate

20 hours ago, Jwoodgardenmaintenance said:

I'm 21 now and looking at getting into property development next year but I have been told by a few folk that renti g them out is more hassle than it's worth but reading this thread is making me wander now ? what age do you lot reckon is a good age to start paying into the pension? 

Firstly hats off to you for thinking about pensions at 21. I think a lot of people wish they had done that, myself included.

The answer is the earlier the better (ie now). A rule of thumb is if you start now you would only need a total contribution (so your contribution plus the external top up) equal to around 10% of your annual salary every year for a comfortable income for life once you retire.

The longer you postpone starting your pension, the higher the percentage you need to continually put in. I'm only about 10 years older than you and recently started, and I'm putting in 24% (although a bit more complex).

On average people your age will live to over 90, you might even experience 2100. Starting to invest for your retirement at 21 will probably be one of the wisest financial decisions you'll make.

Does anyone have any experience with combining a wood stove with back boiler, and a ASHP (air 2 water) for central heating and DHW? Looking for a system that can use logs but also operate without if desired and not cost the earth (electric only available second energy source).

Seems to be a few ways of going about it, like a H5 panel or something like the pic below;