Verena

Hello, I was wondering what the general approach is when during a tree survey it is discovered that wires/ ropes/ cables are embedded in the trunk of a large otherwise good quality tree? 1 in 5 sites I go to have at least one tree someone tied bunting, washing lines, fence wires, barb wire or cables around. When starting off as a tree surveyor, I was told you can't tell what damage it does to the inside of the tree, so if it's anywhere near vulnerable targets, remove the tree. I can't quite imagine it causing extensive decay, especially as I have seen trees where the ropes come out of the centre of the trunk (meaning it has been there for years) but the canopy looks fine. Will the tree simply grow over it and remain stable? Has anybody got experience in decay detection and can tell me which (if any) method is best used to see if and how much damage is caused by embedded wire/ rope? Or is it safest to just remove the tree on the basis that it's structural integrity cannot be guaranteed? Any advice would be great, got this lovely oak but think it'll have to go (its actualy riddled with bark wire, cables AND ropes). Thank you! Verena

I know the SSM guidelines are thought through and not rocket science, but I can certainly do with a boost of confidence when it comes to knowing a veteran tree when I see one (from my limited experience I know it's not necessarily a case of "yes" or "no" but a great deal of "maybe"), and even if they tell me I've done everything the way it should be done, I would see this as a day well spent. And if it's a good number of us interested, it will hopefully not be too expensive to call it off. Verena

Hi all, it's a while ago since I posted here first, but I remember getting in touch with Treeworks and they quoted £750 for a day's training, no matter if it's one taker or five. I think they said there may be a maximum number they'd want to take on, but at that time I wasn't worried about that. Tony, is it okay for you to speak to Neville and let us all know? Verena

Hi Adam, Weird coincidence, just came back after months of not checking :-) I've not been able to find anything other than Treeworks training, but would still be interested if you're thinking about speaking to Neville Fay or anyone at Treeworks, and if anyone else is, we may be able to get a group together tosplit the cost between us? Verena

Hi all, Thanks for all the replies! The surface is called "golpla" (not heavily used area), and the landscape architect says he has specified it with pinkerbs before. The edge is currently REALLY 100mm from the base of the tree. To be fair to the landscape architect, the footprint of the proposed hard landscape is based on an existing compacted gravel area, but he was cheating a little, so will hopefully move the edge to the original 500mm from the tree. Bridging sounds intriguing, sloth, just not quite sure how that would work technically with standard pinkerbs they're insisting on using? Cost is- as always- an issue, and I tried to sell them the railway sleeper idea... "lovely" they said and showed me their empty pockets... :-( Verena

Hi all, BS 5837 (2012) refers to "proprietary products" when it comes to installing non-invasive kerbs in RPAs of trees. Can anyone point me in the right direction of products they can recommend/specify? Architects on my project are currently specifying standard pin kerbs 100mm from a tree... not happy! Thank you! Verena

Hi everyone, I am very keen to get some training on the Veteran Trees Specialist Survey Method (by English Nature/ Treework) and wondered if a) someone knows where to do it (I'm currently in touch with Treework and Ancient Tree Forum) as an individual or part of a group OR b) if anyone would be interested in a one day training day with someone from Treework (could be Neville Fay himself, not sure though). The cost would be £750 + expenses for a day of his/her time, split between us, and of course cheaper per person the more people join us (there may be a maximum number). If you're interested, or if you have any thoughts, please email me: verena.meyer<at>ecusltd.co.uk Cheers, Verena

Hiya, I am currently drawing up a tree protection plan and got stuck with this question: The site and the neighbours site are retained by a 0.5-0.8m high stone retaining wall running along a residential road. The neighbour has got a tree in his front garden, and the RPA extends into the site. My client proposes to take a chunk out of the retaining walln regrade his land and build a ramp affecting aprrox. 20% of the offiste tree's RPA. The client can- in theory- cut roots, but we would normally go a few lengths to protect a neighbour's tree and its roots. Assuming the access ramp and regrading can't be avoided, would you just not protect this part of the RPA? Grateful for any thoughts... Thanks

Passed! Hooray! Happy and not happy. Only scraped it, and 4 marks off an overall merit. I was convinced it would be easier this time, knowing the level of oral questions, and knowing that- according to last year's examiner's report- there's no need to fill in everything in the survey schedule (only sufficient data for the task) I can use my time better. Now they wanted to see the full schedule and sound surprised noone bothered. The oral questions (apart from the airspade one I can't remember any details) were 5x harder than last year, some abbreviations i never heard of instead of practical knowledge on mulching and pruning. I daftly volunteered to do the oral bit first, which completely threw me and put me in the wrong frame of mind for the management exercise. Passed, but still whinging, that's me!

Anyone knows what this is? It's a yew, a section of it turning brown, but this year's shoots don't seem to be affected at all, and so isn't about 75% of the tree. Yew Dieback due to a fungus? Apparently this can also happen if roots are rotting, or even if the area by the tree is used as a "toilet"? Thank you!

Hi, I am doing my Unit 5 resit on Tuesday, 2nd Oct at 9am. I have booked a room in a B&B in Bewdley for the night before, but now thinking of cancelling and booking somewhere in Kiddderminster as public transport is pretty rubbish (just been advised not to drive for a couple of months for health reasons- honest!). Is anyone staying in Kidderminster who can give me a lift (from Kidderminster to Arley and/or back at 10.30)? Please email me, I'm happy to contribute to petrol cost. [email protected] Thank you Verena

Treecreeper-Ben: Working with the BS on a very regular basis, I don't think I would have been much happier with 50% :-( I think "remaining contribution" is debatable, but unless they tell me what I wrote and what they think I should have written, I'm none the wiser... Having thought about it a lot, I agree that RPA should have been just circles. At least that would have been strictly to BS. The reasons for crown thinning that I can remember I mentioned are: Shade reduction (for whatever reason), reduction of sail effect (where a dense canopy and strong wind may cause the tree to be blown over), reduction of stress (examiner wasn't too happy with that I think), removal of dead wood or competitive/crossing branches (sanitation/aesthetics), reduction of the weight of the crown (fruit trees, old trees where environment not ideal). Re your question about what we do at work: We prepare pretty much all the reports/drawings you mentioned. Mainly for Planning. In an ideal world, clients or architects should ask for the survey and RPA before they start their design work, so they can take the information into account and design around desirable trees. But in 99% of the cases they tell us what the design is as soon as they appoint us, and sometimes they tell us which trees WILL have to go, while we are meant to be impartial when assessing the condition and the remaining contribution of a tree. Mex-Nick: Don't remember what I wrote for the drainage question, so I assume I haven't done it either. A sign that we didn't have enough time is when you don't remember what you actually did answer... Plus, yes, the most annoying thing about failing was that the resit won't be before October. Waiting for a whole year, plus Tom from Myerscough College says if the revised BS gets published in April, the October exam will be based on that, so we have to rethink, but it also means we'll be the first experts Verena

This is all I'm aware of 4.6.3 The RPA for each tree should be plotted as a circle centred on the base of the tree, unless pre-existing site conditions or other factors indicate that rooting has occurred asymmetrically, in which case a differently shaped polygon of equivalent area should be preserved. Modifications to the shape of the RPA should reflect a soundly based justification of the likely root distribution and should not result in polygons plotted simply for convenience in relation to proposed development. Any deviation in the RPA from the simple circle should take full account of the following factors whilst still providing adequate protection for the root system: a) the morphology and disposition of the roots, when influenced by past or existing site conditions (e.g. the presence of roads, structures and underground apparatus); b) topography and drainage; c) the soil type and structure; d) the likely tolerance of the tree to root disturbance or damage, based on factors such as species, age, condition and pruning regime. It doesn't say anything about large trees growing closely together... Sorry if I'm a bit slow here...?

Revised BS 5837 due to be released end April 2012.

BS 5837 to be released end April 2012. So they say. Assuming that the October exam will be based on this, it should be the most important read the New Year will have to offer to me... By the way, I had a couple of trees removed in my exam paper, and it was nothing the remark person has objected to. I think that sometimes trees simply have to go. I think all they want to see is that you can justify your decision. Which I made within 1 minute 15 seconds or less. Oh well... Tim: "it is permissable to alter RPA designated footprints under certain circumstances...look these up Verena I would suggest"- is there anywhere else than the BS where this is dealt with? BS only says pre-existing structures like roads etc. Verena

Well, ok then. I basically did a sound survey (yay!), but messed up the rest (only failed by 2 marks, boo!) Main issues with the survey: Some of the age classes given were inaccurate. errors on ‘Estimated remaining contribution’ and ‘Preliminary Management Recommendations’. For surveying trees it is important to have a good knowledge of tree genera and the age class range associated with these. Can anyone help here? I used experience from work, which never seems to include a Davidia or Monkey Puzzle. Is guidance available somewhere? I didn't have time to draw the crown spreads and subsequently failed to colour code the retention categories (A-D). Some RPAs were inaccurate, and I still don't know how to do it properly. At work we rarely show RPAs as perfect circles, especially where trees grow closely together, which means we often draw them smaller than what we calculated. Our interpretation of the BS I suppose, which is wrong? Next time I might just stick to the circles unless there's a river/building/retaining wall/road? Car Park did not appear to be to scale and did not allow room for young tree development. Q 2.a.ii: Reasons for siting the car park apparently were a mess, as a result of not having the time I'd normally have for a job like this (several hours). Q.2.b. Eight recommendations for tree work. One mark for that. And I don't even know what that was. Big question mark over their feedback for Q.2.c. ‘Identifying 30 activities and/or methods which could be undertaken during the construction process that could be used to avoid damage to retained trees’. They seem to suggest that "Replanting proposals" is one possible answer. During Construction? To avoid damage to retained trees? Other answers are fair: - Erection and type of protective fencing; - Soil levels; - Appropriate site notices; - Dealing with the car park construction; - Replacement planting; - Compliance with guidance and legislation etc. but "Much of the information you supplied which appeared to relate to this section was not valid so you missed out on the majority of marks.". I remember that I wrote "No open fires", "No use of chemicals", "No heavy machinery"- not sure if I got marks for that, it's claerly mentioned in the BS. Q 2 c will be the main query in my response to the remark report. Q.2.d. "Marks were awarded for the answer you provided, however this was insufficient and you gained less than half the available marks for this question Particular points where possible marks could have been gained were: - Details concerning the NJUG document; - Zone dimensions; - Dealing with roots in more detail; - Protection of roots and back-filling etc." That's it. So many fair comments, but some unclear. Must watch the time next time, spend less valuable time at the oral bit (where I think I did quite well). I have now emailed British Standards to find out when BS 5837:2011 (2012?) is due for release. Will keep you posted. Any comments, please fire away! Verena

I have just received my remark from ABC for Unit 5 (still failed), anyone still here to discuss it? There are some useful comments which might help others to pass this year, but I also have a few questions and I'd be grateful for any help. I'm not sure if my £100 remark fee covers this, but I'll probably send a reply, as some of their comments don't make sense to me...

I think it'll be an external examiner. But there's no chance to get the paper back, according to Daniel Moult from ABC. Bit mean, but maybe they don't want us to pass on any answers?

Hi everyone, thanks for the encouragement. Took me only a day or two to get over it, especially as my boss didn't take any longer :-) It's annoying, but Matt, you're right, focussing on one module only should enable me to do loads better next year. And I've got 11 months to practice my timing at work. Will probably request a remark next week, just to make sure I don't repeat any mistakes. However, it can take them up to 3 weeks to send me their report, possibly too late for you to request one, too, Bundle2 (remark to be requested within 28 days)? Verena Does anyone know when the new BS 5837 is due to be published?

Tim and Ben, see you both in October, I suppose :-( Managed to fail Unit 5 (BS 5837), one of two units I felt most confident about that morning. Less confient when I ran out of time, but I guess failing it means something else went wrong, not just the time limit. Have now requested info on how far off I was and what to do in order to receive a marked copy of my paper, so I know what to do differently next year. Very annoyed that I have to wait a whole year. Ben: Might comfort you slightly: They say pass rate for Unit 5 is always the lowest, the exam itself always perceived as the hardest. Verena