Fungus

There is a principle in online discussions known as Godwins Law which states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

"... there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress."

Tony,

So you're the one losing whatever debate and finishing the thread by being the first to mention Hitler or did you think that the "Man in Black" was Hitler instead of Claus Mattheck, who by the way always wears brown leather clothing ?

Anyhow crack on. First person to mention Hitler loses...

Tony,

It must be my poor understanding of British humour and/or the experiences we Dutch had with the nazi's that I don't see the joke in this, so could you please enlighten me on the meaning of your above statement on Hitler and on who the first person is to mention he (= ?) loses.

So you took some walks with the Man in Black, impressive name to drop. Name dropping is another side of the ad hominem fallacy

How about this for an ad hominem fallacy :

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1. has there been evidence of large diameter branches (in leaf) failing, in the Netherlands?

2. Also, have you documented Inonotus hispidus together with Massaria?

1. Yes, there has, but not very often because of pro-active removing of infected large diameter branches diagnosed by infected small branches lying on the ground (see the photo's in my thread and earlier post) leading to timely high altitude inspection.

2. Never together, always after one another with I. hispidus being the later one fruiting from the trunk and never from major (Massaria infected) branches.

Fantastic thread and photo collection David, thanks for posting.

: also see my thread on Massaria in The Netherlands, to which I add the following photo.

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Last year, I found two small annual brackets of Meripilus giganteus hidden between low bushes surrounding the base of this old roadside beech and this is what the crown looks like this year.

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"I have ended reacting to any of your posts on this forum"

Be strong

Steve,

: as far as posts with a mycological, (forest or urban) ecological and arboricultural content are concerned.

"With this reply and after reviewing your obvious lack of expertise on, or even any interest whatsoever in the *arboricultural* aspects of urban ecology"

Quote from my "CV" on Arbtalk : "... from 1996 on ... an educationial program with seminars and in situ workshops all over The Netherlands and Belgium following and completing a basic VTA course ... the participants of the mycological courses and workshops, which were a few hundred over the 11 years I was associated with an international tree company for which I assessed and monitored (both VTA and MTA) over 15.000 urban and road side trees. During that period I also intensively worked together with Claus Mattheck."

both with religion in their mission statements : :lol:

Maybe you should point the TO in the direction of some information regarding the Phellinus pomaceus=tuberculosus.

See my posts on Phellinus tuberculosus.

1. Over twenty five years of short and long term experimental and in situ research done by several highly qualified European scientists from different backgrounds of which you obviously never have heard, which makes me all the more skeptical about your supposed expertise on the subject of Armillaria with you trying to detect hyphae with a magnifying glass in the past.

2. You first said that acidification comes from cow pads, remember ? And what about spreading of nitrification by ground and surface water ?

3. Do you seriously think that plants and natural mulch can compensate for the massive nitrification of the soil through the air and by water and on what scientifically valid research is this personal (?) opinion based ?

4. Yes, it has as well in The Netherlands as in Germany for individual or rows of several species of trees in lanes or roadside verges and for trees in infected forests (oak, spruce).

5. Questionable, sure and that's why an in vitro and in situ program of international scientific research has started since 2007 and my book "De verborgen boom" presenting the concept of the Tree Species Specific Ecosystem is published coming September, which is more than can be said of your rather religious "mission statement", that can nor will not be tested for validity at all.

6. See 1.

With this reply and after consulting some of my colleagues and arborists from the U.K., the European continent and Australia on your obvious lack of expertise on mycological aspects of tree care, I have ended reacting to any of your posts on this forum, nor to enlighten you as the owner of Better Tree Care on the subject of mycology or forest ecology.

Interestingly I read recently that the non-GM supporting FC are currently funding a project from Dundee University that is producing GM Elms that may be resistant to DED.

In The Netherlands we have quite some experience with non-GEM species and variaties of elms that have proven to be resistent to DED.

Not sure if this is the right thread so apologies if it isn't. Can you guys ID these for a colleague of mine? We're having difficulty navigating around some of the fung ID sites so it's often easier to ask on here. They're growing out of some mulch apllied to the gardens.

Hard to say without knowing the colour of the spores. Because they seem to be rusty brown on the yellow gills and the closed caps have a yellowish cortina like annulus connecting the rim to the stem, I think it could be an (indigenous) Gymnopilus species or an Agrocybe species if the spores are more tobacco to dark brown.

Why is it rare for Tilia to get struck ?

I'm just referring to the lack of (reliable) documentations of lightning strikes in old and free standing Tilia in The Netherlands, which I only have observed twice.

1. What is the scientific basis for this opinion ? If no experiments have taken place, maybe they should. If this is another case of "believe me/us, based on who we are", then with all due respect there is cause for skepticism.

2. I'm aware it's in the air.

3. And you must be aware that associated plants and mulch can capture and hold N that is in the air.

4. has this removal program been scientifically verified through experimentation ?

5. Or is a best guess, based on the questionable hypothesis that fungus plays the leading part in tsse ?

6. If no experiments have taken place, maybe they should.

1. Over twenty five years of short and long term experimental and in situ research done by several highly qualified European scientists from different backgrounds of which you obviously never have heard, which makes me all the more skeptical about your supposed expertise on the subject of Armillaria with you trying to detect hyphae with a magnifying glass in the past.

2. You first said that acidification comes from cow pads, remember ? And what about spreading of nitrification by ground and surface water ?

3. Do you seriously think that plants and natural mulch can compensate for the massive nitrification of the soil through the air and by water and on what scientifically valid research is this personal (?) opinion based ?

4. Yes, it has as well in The Netherlands as in Germany for individual or rows of several species of trees in lanes or roadside verges and for trees in infected forests (oak, spruce).

5. Questionable, sure and that's why an in vitro and in situ program of international scientific research has started since 2007 and my book "De verborgen boom" presenting the concept of the Tree Species Specific Ecosystem is published coming September, which is more than can be said of your rather religious "mission statement", that can nor will not be tested for validity at all.

6. See 1.

what physical difference between Ganoderma lipsiense and australe Agathomyia wankowiczii looks for? I presume it knows, somehow, which is which before laying its eggs; or does it lay eggs in both but they only grow on the one sp? I wonder if it was known what the fly looks for, if the information could be used to devise/create a field test to distinguish them.

Kev & David,

The female fly doesn't look for anything, she "smells" (pheromones) the difference between the two species (and all other species) of Ganoderma and is very accurate at it. So I'd sooner rely on her "nose" than on Neil's observation of a Ganoderma species that was covered with a resupinate Sistotrema sernanderi, that could have been responsible for the abnormal size of the spores for a G. lipsiense or his sample of the spores was not accurately selected, i.e. there were to many not completely ripened spores in his sample. And then there is the medium in which the spore size was checked that could have been responsible for shrinking or swelling of the spores. Besides, his find was never officially published and the other "maybe" finds on G. australe were never microscopically checked.

1. Who cares about dead wood being decayed ?

2. Does anyone doubt that excessive nitrification can be mitigated by soil work, or growing beneficial associated plants that buffer these effects and take up a lot of N ? Is there any harm in experimenting ?

3. That is why Armillaria should be removed from trees of value. This is not a complex concept.

1. Humble arborists do if they are to assess and manage the stability and the risk of falling of a tree.

2. Most of the European researchers qualified on the subject of excessive nitrification do and otherwise would have found a "cure" for or a method of mitigating the effects of nitrification, which by the way is not restricted to the soil. And there is no harm in experimenting if it is done by properly trained experts using scientifically valid methods.

3. If it was that simple, we would not have a massive Armillaria problem.

Do you think that K deusta which is most common on beech proves that the two have a close relationship and hence the beech is more adapted to slowing the decay? what is it that makes beech rays so fundementaly different to tilia, betula or acer for example? beech have a high ray count dont they, they are small and numerous in comparison?

 

K deusta has not the capacity to generate bore holes in the lumina walls, so I assume it is more progressive in Tilia etc because it can bypass through rays into the new rings as opposed to boring through the walls of the vessels or lumina? as it cannot degrade the pectin in the middle lamella as an alternative route?

I agree on both accounts.

Bacterial Canker of Cherry ... Are there any oozy amber coloured blobs anywhere on the stems of the cherry?

See photo.

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1. No one's guaranteeing forever--a short-term benefit is still a benefit, and may allow other therapies, such as soil work to mitigate acidification and nitrification, take hold. For trunks and buttresses, decay fungi can and should be resisted.

2. Soil type influenced disease development and the proportion of trees infected was higher in an acidic sand soil than in an alkaline clay soil."

1. Excessive nitrification enhances wood degrading fungi to speed up the decay of dead wood which can not be mitigated by soil work.

2. No wonder, as the hyphae of Armillaria are protected against acids, bacteria and other fungi by the melanin layers shielding them off (plaques) or covering and surrounding them (rhizomorphs).

1. The amount of soil removed is highly unlikely to destabilize a mature oak -- is this a serious question ?

Ad 1. It was not the effect of the amount of soil removed on the stability of the plants that was the subject of the in vitro research -- is this a serious answer ?

2. It's the combination of treatments they were testing, and they were judging by the results.

Ad 2. Testing on grapes and strawberries and with results assuming, i.e. not proving a positive short or long term effect on trees.

3. Trees can wall off some wood-destroying fungi, inexorably and indefinitely, indicating immortality.

Ad 3. Repeating your "mission statement" doesn't prove anything.

4. Condemning mature urban oaks based on nearby rhizomorphs sounds more like jumping to conclusions on an unproven assumption !

Ad 4. Who says I've ever condemned a tree on the presence of nearby rhizomorphs or on the mere presence of rhizomorphs alone ? Speaking of jumping to conclusions !

5. Acidification is global and gradual. Cow crap has been spread on fields since the dawn of civilization. The problems you cite are (somewhat) reversible, at least proven treatable. Other studies show improvement in tree health and growth. An inventory over time would be interesting to see, true. The populations might shift, and while this might upset the tssm/tsse applecart in one view, populations of microbes can adjust, influenced by the dominant organism, the tree ... the proportion of trees infected was higher in an acidic sand soil than in an alkaline clay soil." So yes reducing acidification and nitrification should be part of the work--and soil replacement and modificiation does that.

Ad 5. Acidification from cow crap ? I thought it came from brown coal fired powerplants or heavy industry and cars.

Massive nitrification comes from three to four storey pig and chicken "farms" with over 15.000 animals per stable and from overmanuring (ammonia) of grasslands and maize fields, i.e. not from extensive agriculture using cow pads. So how do you suppose to treat, reverse, overcome or neutralize the effects of these nitrification levels ? By soil replacement in all woodlands, parks and roadside verges of The Netherlands and the western parts of Germany ?

And you obviously still don't understand the essence and importance of the tree species specific soil food web if you think microbes can take over the basic functions of mycorrhizal fungi.

6. That looks like an issue of timing and quantity. In tree health care, efforts are made to decrease the potential of pathogens. If Armillaria-infected tissue and soil is removed before inoculation, an introduced inoculant can more likely gain the upper hand.

The picture shows Armillaria going full force, and a few specks of Trichoderma on top, which is the completely opposite scenario.

Ad 6. All assumptions for which there is no proof. How do you assess the quantity and effectiveness of several different Trichoderma species that are already present in the soil before deciding to introduce an artificially produced Trichoderma ?

And can you judge from the quantity and size of the anamorphs in the picture how much material of the Armillaria melanin plaques was invaded and degraded by the mycelium of the Trichoderma ?

7. this treatment ... Can you prove it wrong ?

Ad 7. The question is not whether I can prove it wrong, it's whether you can prove it right.

so are we suggesting that trees can compartmentalise K deusta? I was under the impression it was fairly invasive?

Some trees (beech, ash) can for a while as long as the radial rays are shut down by the tree to keep the mycelium of K. deusta entering and using the rays to reach and invade the living tissues. IME for instance Tilia, Acer, Betula and Quercus rubra can not compartementalise K. deusta effectively.

1. Trees infected with Armillaria fungus can be treated by exposure and by inoculation with beneficial antagonists to that pathogen. This research, conducted in the United Kingdom and with the lead author from the United Kingdom, proves the effectiveness of exposing the infected area and treating with beneficial microorganisms.

2. In addition, several studies in the forestry, phytopathology and ecology literature demonstrate the effectiveness of these treatments.

3. Therefore, it seems that condemning trees in urban areas based on rhizomorphs without considering these simple therapeutic treatments may be needlessly costing those communities irreplaceable arboreal resources.

1."the potential of Trichoderma (Trianum, a Dutch product for instance used for Fusarium control in beans) against A. mellea remains unknown" ... "the use of root invigoration in combination with Trichoderma may provide a useful cultural/bio-control combination for long term A. mellea control." (How, when, where and by whom is this monitored and tested ?) ... "Results of our experiments should also be interpreted with some degree of caution when adapting research from grapes and strawberries to large trees with respect to structural aspects."

2. How can several studies in the forestry, phytopathology and ecology literature demonstrate the effectiveness of these treatments if "the potential of Trichoderma against A. mellea remains unknown" and the "results of our experiments should also be interpreted with some degree of caution when adapting research from grapes and strawberries to large trees with respect to structural aspects" ? Besides, old wine in new bottles considering the extensive research on the effects of Trichoderma (and Phlebiopsis gigantea) on Heterobasidion annosum and the lack of proof for the long term effectiveness of the treatment.

3. Again jumping to conclusions on an unproven assumption ?

Apart from the above, the following remarks and questions arise :

- What about Armillaria ostoyae, the dominant species on oaks and coniferous trees ?

- What about the effects of acidification and nitrification causing the massive outbreak of Armillaria and can these effects be overcome or neutralised by root invigoration and the introduction of Trianum ?

- What about the effects of tree root invigoration on root protecting and defending mycorrhizae ?

- Strawberries and grapes are endomycorrhizal, a lot of the affected tree species are ectomycorrhizal.

- Why introduce Trianum into the soil food webs of trees if "Trichoderma is a genus of fungi that is present in all soils" and also in trees in combination with plaques of Armillaria ostoyae that does not seem to "suffer" from the presence of Trichoderma at all (see photo) ?

The photo shows the inside of a felled oak that was brown rotted by Laetiporus sulphureus and white rotted by Armillaria ostoyae with the presence of the anamorph Trichoderma viride (of Hypocrea rufa) "feeding on" the plaques of the Armillaria without damaging the melanin covered wood degrading hyphae.

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When I click on 'example' through tapatalk, I end up here, http://arbtalk.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=

Is that right?

No, when I click on "example", I get to a post by Matthew Arnold on an Ash stump with K. deusta.

Where the mycelium of K. deusta is stopped by the tree at the edge of sound wood, the black lines are tree based defensive barrier formations (compartmentalisation).

Here's a good example of this phenomenon (photo 3, 4 and 6).

D Lonsdale talks about work he did with Schwartze in the early nineties around 2 distinct varieties.

A darker smaller (northern european) form like ones found in Scotland, and a lighter larger (southern/european) form.

If this is the case, it would be interesting to see how far north the lighter form has progressed

I've read that the differences could be "attributed either to different ecotypes or to interactions between the genotype and its environment"

David,

There are no differences between the two "varieties" at a microscopical level and I've documented both "distinct varieties" from southern Europe up to Scandinavia on Fagus, Betula, Quercus, Tilia, Alnus, Salix, Populus and Aesculus. I even found both "varieties" twice on the same tree, so there is no distinct "northern" or "southern" variety.