Thermal Imaging Camera's

[Andy Clark]

OK, with the frivolity out the way can we get back to the topic here.

 

I agree that selling a service is important and finding a place for thermal imaging has been one of the commercial challenges. The fact is that it offers us so much more than other tree assessment tools. It cannot be offered comparably to any other methodology because it looks at different aspects of the trees functional growth form.

 

For a start it presents us with the first proactive means of looking at trees. I have never liked the idea of looking at decay without understanding the functional capacity of the tree and the volume of reactive wood that compensates for the presence of decay. After all, every mature tree will have a volume of decay progressively increasing depending on its physiological health.

 

This technology offers us a completely new insight into tree function and relationship within their growing environment. It provides us with information that no other tool can come close to because we are looking at the positive attributes of the tree and not just measuring the volume of decay.

 

Thermal imaging offers us massive opportunities to learn more about trees and make more informed judgments about their management, because we have a better understanding of their current condition and can compare this to other trees in the same population.

 

But Andrew, it's not about what it offers "US" as Arborists, it's about what "we" can sell to "our" clients!

 

I've said twice now, that yes, I agree on the possible scientific benefits and i'm certainly not disputing anything towards that end.....

 

But a practitioner needs to be able to "sell" it to customers...... and in this economic and industry climate, there's bob hope of that happening. Simples!

[BatiArb]

 

Incedently data from VTA should be treated in the same way. It should be collated and analysed to find out where the differences are and how individuals that fail are different from the rest of the population. If this isn't done then there is no scientific validity to any assumptions made about the hypothetical correlations between individual defects and the likelihhood to fail.

 

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Marcus, J have to agree with you, much though I hate the idea of all these statistics floating around the place.

 

I believe that we as a profession need to have a far greater respect for the reactive time spans we are dealing with. Trees grow and react to their environment over years, decades and centuries, not days, months and years, like us.

 

Trees simply operate on a completely different time line to us. They are also reactive generative organisms as apposed to regenerative organisms such as ourselves.

 

However, humans have historically found it easier to use the same assessment criteria. Without due consideration to what is ‘normal’ for the species and populations we are considering.

[BatiArb]

I have made good use of this information in terms of work carried out on veteran beech trees. By being able to see where the wood has near optimal properties, the trees have been pruned and the regrowth has been excelent. Just writing this up for publication at the moment. The best bit is that in many cases the trees could be 'left to their own devices' without any worry about them failing, many with K. deusta as a purely saprophytic growth, others with superficial growths of M. giganteous. Many with Ganoderma sp. This is quite important since I am convinced that many older beech trees go into a kind of transient veteran stage caused by drought from which they recover. The problem is that work is then carried out that accelerates the decline of the trees, where as if they had been left to recover then they would have done so and the only work would be the occasional removal of dead wood.

 

This kind of observation is what makes thermal imaging really stand out because it offers us the opportunity to make informed decisions that save clients time and money. This is where the value comes in and provides the salable product.

 

Using thermal imaging proactively it is possible to plan tree work budgets far more effectively, efficiently and economically.

 

More information about the quality of the tree stock being managed means real tree care and responsible management decisions.

 

This technological advance presence us with the ability to move from being no more than tree chopping butchers, taking out the weak to be slaughtered, to an age of true and effective tree care.

 

The AA’s logo is a classic example of where we could be….. Caring for Trees….. How much of our time as arborists is actually spent in positive tree care, that we can say honestly prolongs the life of trees……

[Andy Clark]

Marcus, J have to agree with you, much though I hate the idea of all these statistics floating around the place.

 

I believe that we as a profession need to have a far greater respect for the reactive time spans we are dealing with. Trees grow and react to their environment over years, decades and centuries, not days, months and years, like us.

 

Trees simply operate on a completely different time line to us. They are also reactive generative organisms as apposed to regenerative organisms such as ourselves.

 

However, humans have historically found it easier to use the same assessment criteria. Without due consideration to what is ‘normal’ for the species and populations we are considering.

 

Actually, i'd like to correct the both of you......... VTA is a recognised system and methodology of tree failure evaluation, first pioneered by Klaus Matthek et al.

 

You both might want to stop misquoting and using it as a generic term for tree hazard assessment/evaluation.

[BatiArb]

Actually, i'd like to correct the both of you......... VTA is a recognised system and methodology of tree failure evaluation, first pioneered by Klaus Matthek et al.

 

You both might want to stop misquoting and using it as a generic term for tree hazard assessment/evaluation.

 

 

 

Andy, I do not believe I have quoted anything to the contrary. I am fully aware of how VTA can be used and its value as a tree assessment tool. I attended the first UK VTA Master Class that Claus Mattheck presented.

 

This four day intensive VTA training ensures a thorough understanding of tree mechanics and the reactive processes that can be observed in trees.

 

I suggest you at least have the decency to spell his name right.......

[Marcus B-T]

Refering back to the quotes in Dr Catena's work. There are some points. One is that the publication is at least three years out of date and I know that Giorgio's work has moved on from this. Secondly Dr Catena does not have the same scientific background as me and uses the technology in a slightly different way in that his readings are relative not absolute as my system is. But since I have published this it's probably best if you read it.

 

In terms of invividual trees it is hard to comment without all the supporting data but the temperature differences could be quite small so a cooler patch may be insignificant. Also drying of wood will affect the thermal properties of wood quite dramatically, so although the visable amount of decay may be small there may be dry wood that is distiguished as a cooler patch.

 

In terms of a usable system the National Trust for Scotland have used it for three years now and have their own trained person. Blenhiem have used it remarkably well as have many others for about the same period of time. Again if you want to understand this more read the publications when they come out.

 

Having demonstrated it to many local authorities the key things are track record, cost and credibility. Track record is good in terms of virtually no failures, and those that happened where predictable, but on the other side hundreds of condemed trees still standing and doing well. Price realy depends on what you compare it with and what you are dealing with. We used it as part of a complete package and to fit into other peoples existing systems, we have a number of QTRA users and THREATS users amoungst the clients and licensees. The lack of up-to-date publications has been an issue on this last point, but this has now been addressed. We are seeing a large number of repeat orders now and an every increasing number of users. New technology takes time to bed in but now people have seen others use it with sucess it is becoming easier and the price of training and software is comming down as a result. When I first strarted using the cameras they cost £900 a week to rent and cost £25,000 now similar spec cameras are available for around £400 a week and cost around £11,000.

 

In terms of showing people the obvious in demonstartions there are two things with this. Firstly in terms of getting a message across, an obvious example is often a good starting point. Secondly these things are sometimes forced upon us by the organisers, i.e they choose the trees they want us to look at. I personally like the challenging trees. Te ones that look absolutely fine but are rotten as hell. Luckily they are not very common but they are out there; or better still the big old trees covered in fungi that have been given the thumbs down but actually are fine.

 

In terms of science, there are always going to be differences of oppinion in our industry simply because some see it as art and othres as science. I came from a hort/ag background originally so I have a strong science basis to my thinking and arguments but I still have time for the arts opinions. After all a great deal of what arbs provide is artistic and pleasing to both the eye and spirit.

 

However, if we are going to look at risk and likelihood of failure, this has to be based on strong fundamental science, and because of this bias an opinion should only come into it when absolutely necessary.

[Amelanchier]

But since I have published this it's probably best if you read it.

 

Ref?

[Marcus B-T]

I have looked at my original posting and fail to see how I have missrepresented VTA. However, even K. M. would tell you that VTA is only a starting point and trees identified by thier attributes may need closer inspection. The point though is this if you have a population and a sub population has a defect and within that population those defects are known to cause a disproportionate number of failures then you have something significant. However if most members of another population have the same defect and there is no history of failures or disproportionate number of failures associated with them then the attribute is insignificant. This is indisputable and what the use of VTA or any other methodology should seek to determine. VTA is a methodology thats seeks to identify those attributes that may be significant. It does not on its own determine the significance since that will be down to many factors and variables not just the presence of a visual attribute.

[Andy Clark]

I have looked at my original posting and fail to see how I have missrepresented VTA. However, even K. M. would tell you that VTA is only a starting point and trees identified by thier attributes may need closer inspection. The point though is this if you have a population and a sub population has a defect and within that population those defects are known to cause a disproportionate number of failures then you have something significant. However if most members of another population have the same defect and there is no history of failures or disproportionate number of failures associated with them then the attribute is insignificant. This is indisputable and what the use of VTA or any other methodology should seek to determine. VTA is a methodology thats seeks to identify those attributes that may be significant. It does not on its own determine the significance since that will be down to many factors and variables not just the presence of a visual attribute.

 

 

Yes Marcus, and at £2.50 - £3.00 per tree, it's also one of the many commercially viable methods of tree hazard evaluation that practitioners are able to "sell" to their clients.

 

 

You or Andrew have still yet to argue or prove the case for TI as being an equally commercially viable alternative.

[Andy Clark]

Andy. Ask a question.

 

In my earlier posting, i made mention of the looooooooong list of industry recognised and used alternatives...... QTRA, VTA, THREATS etc.....

 

In response, you make mention that TI can be integrated with these methods......

 

 

Question is, when will you/Andrew in whatever guise you so deem, be in reciept of acknowledgement of this integration, from the instigators of these "other" peer reviewed assessment methods?