The VTA Method, lets talk

[BatiArb]

I partially agree, but if you agree to be employed as a consultant you have a duty to give your client the information which they need to make an informed decision - even if that information, and their informed decision, is contrary to your own personal values or beliefs.

 

I agree that is always going to be the challenge as an independent advisor. However, it does not stop you holding those values and expressing your opinion. You can and I do still offer all the alternatives so the client can make their own informed judgement.

 

Surely the consultant who holds his subject in high regard and values it accordingly will be seen as providing better advice than someone who shows not enthusiasm for the subject or even worse projects a negative opinion.

 

A consultants role is to provide advice on a subject that they have enthusiasm for and knowledge about. Projecting this value to the client increases the importance of the decisions they make, either one way or the other.

 

Again providing them with the information they need to make an informed decision is the value we offer. Education is the key here, and this goes back to Tony's comments as well

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

I partially agree, but if you agree to be employed as a consultant you have a duty to give your client the information which they need to make an informed decision - even if that information, and their informed decision, is contrary to your own personal values or beliefs.

 

I agree, and would always inform of ALL the possibilities, but in this duty of care also comes a duty to not impose or bias an opinion toward one system nor another, which is something I see an awful lot of going on.

 

present company excluded!

 

Another duty is to make sense of the practicalities, and costs associated with such alternatives, including the if buts whens and maybes that come with spending a lot of money on an uncertain conclusion.

 

I would not be considering SIA training if it wasnt in regard to this duty, I have to be informed on ALL options and methods, its only right and propper.

 

I also feel it fair only to judge a thing when one is aware of all the facts and figures, my thoughts on certain methods true usefulness in evaluation do not always reflect what the profesion at large feel, but that does not mean i would disregard them, or fail to offer that information.

 

as Andy said it is our role to be the information resource, the knowledge, that is our role, without personal agenda or bias, and THAT is a very very rare thing.

[Bundle 2]

This has strayed somewhat from VTA has n't it...! There are no systems ,as far as I know, which set out how to be a good consultant. This is at the root of so much of the discussion around qualifications imo.

Sorry, back on topic!

[BatiArb]

This has strayed somewhat from VTA has n't it...! There are no systems ,as far as I know, which set out how to be a good consultant. This is at the root of so much of the discussion around qualifications imo.

Sorry, back on topic!

 

I do not think this is too far off topic, because as you say, part of the problem is who uses the system (VTA or other) and on what knowledge of the tree is it based.

 

I think it is an interesting point that Tony raises about educating the general public in the use of VTA. How much knowledge of trees is required to us VTA effectively?

 

Claus provides and intensive four day course for professional arborists, that allows them to become part of the VTA elite. However, the aim of his system is to make things simple to understand and allow almost anyone to visually assess a tree. Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

 

I think this is quite an important point in this discussion. What do you think?

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

I do not think this is too far off topic, because as you say, part of the problem is who uses the system (VTA or other) and on what knowledge of the tree is it based.

 

I think it is an interesting point that Tony raises about educating the general public in the use of VTA. How much knowledge of trees is required to us VTA effectively?

 

Claus provides and intensive four day course for professional arborists, that allows them to become part of the VTA elite. However, the aim of his system is to make things simple to understand and allow almost anyone to visually assess a tree. Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

 

I think this is quite an important point in this discussion. What do you think?

 

Absolutley 100% if i can master the body language of trees and VTA ANYONE can,

 

but on a serious note, I dont doubt that claus and his method of teaching can and will empower the public at large, given the right direction and push, we as arbs need to get it out there to as many as possible.

 

When i describe the features i se, when i read the tree and any decay characteristics to clients I am still amazed at how fascinating they find this and interested to know more.

 

with the right approach i think we could inspire a whole generation of public to have a more "naturaly inclusive view" of trees and the nature of the life that is based on the tree as an eco system.

[Bundle 2]

It puts me in mind of the saying.."buy a dog and bark yourself"....

[Cassian]

I understand and respect the saying that 'a little bit of knowledge is dangerous' but on the other hand if our clients and the public as a whole have a greater appreciation for trees, how they live, the dynamics of their reactive growth, etc. This can only be a good thing because understanding creates respect.

 

Gents,

I am sure that if trees were understood by people to the same level as the conditioned arborist (tree culturist) that we would be a part of the most dynamic and well supported profession on the planet. With an endless supply of funds to better understand and care for the backbone of most land based eco-systems – the tree.

 

One of the challenges that I am facing with my attempt to re-enter the UK Arb profession after 20 years in Australia is just how poor the pay arborists in the UK receive. As a conditioned consulting arborist in Queensland I cannot match my current business package (equivalent to UK £49,500 a year) with salary packages in Britain.

 

This directly correlates to the lack of value the public place on trees.

 

For Landscape Architects to now be employing consulting arborists to assist with trees on development sites (to assist with BS 5837) yet be paying them half what they pay their other land based profession staff is a clear example.

 

For our profession to be taken seriously, for us to be paid equivalent to the other highly developed professions and for the tree to be valued it has to be respected.

 

For trees to gain the respect they deserve for their evolutionary capacity for adaption, for the biological, biochemical, biomechanical genius that generates their bodies and the benefits that they give humanity then people need to be educated.

Not neccesarily in arboriculture but in how trees function, knowledge of the tree system leads into people realising tree-culture.

 

Let’s face it if all arborists understood that there would be considerably more tree cultural activity happening at ground level and considerably less activity occurring in the upper crowns of trees.

I believe that to become potent as professionals Andrew is spot on, we have to provide education to the people.

 

Best regards Cassian

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

Well said that man, theres a few of us out there that want this public awareness, it can only be a good thing.

 

And your right about the quality of life that a true arborist deserves, the pay grade isnt all it should be. if i had a pound for everytime ive considered moving in to the electricians trade to triple my income i would be doing o.k! but thats another story.

 

At this time, one only has to drive around a town to see the lack of respect afforded trees, here they are forced to live in a mtre square hole in a desert of concrete and tarmac, their trunks scarred by cars and riddled with gano as a result, their crowns reduced to within an inch of their lives and choked with poor air quality that means even the lichens cant get a grip.

 

But what is the answer cassian?

[Bundle 2]

I understand and respect the saying that 'a little bit of knowledge is dangerous' but on the other hand if our clients and the public as a whole have a greater appreciation for trees, how they live, the dynamics of their reactive growth, etc. This can only be a good thing because understanding creates respect.

 

Gents,

I am sure that if trees were understood by people to the same level as the conditioned arborist (tree culturist) that we would be a part of the most dynamic and well supported profession on the planet. With an endless supply of funds to better understand and care for the backbone of most land based eco-systems – the tree.

 

One of the challenges that I am facing with my attempt to re-enter the UK Arb profession after 20 years in Australia is just how poor the pay arborists in the UK receive. As a conditioned consulting arborist in Queensland I cannot match my current business package (equivalent to UK £49,500 a year) with salary packages in Britain.

 

This directly correlates to the lack of value the public place on trees.

 

For Landscape Architects to now be employing consulting arborists to assist with trees on development sites (to assist with BS 5837) yet be paying them half what they pay their other land based profession staff is a clear example.

 

For our profession to be taken seriously, for us to be paid equivalent to the other highly developed professions and for the tree to be valued it has to be respected.

 

For trees to gain the respect they deserve for their evolutionary capacity for adaption, for the biological, biochemical, biomechanical genius that generates their bodies and the benefits that they give humanity then people need to be educated.

Not neccesarily in arboriculture but in how trees function, knowledge of the tree system leads into people realising tree-culture.

 

Let’s face it if all arborists understood that there would be considerably more tree cultural activity happening at ground level and considerably less activity occurring in the upper crowns of trees.

I believe that to become potent as professionals Andrew is spot on, we have to provide education to the people.

 

Best regards Cassian

 

Thanks for taking the time to post.

You'll get no argument from me. As tree care professionals, we will inescapably involve ourselves, and our clients, in this process. To varying degrees, depending on the nature of the work and the capacity in which we are engaged.

You have neatly summed up some of the discussion to your own "idealistic" assertion. ( I do not disagree I hasten to add! )

"...ne of the challenges that I am facing with my attempt to re-enter the UK Arb profession after 20 years........ a conditioned consulting arborist in Queensland I cannot match my current business package (equivalent to UK £49,500 a year) with salary packages in Britain..." ( my edit! )

This you say is indicative of the way we value trees....again; no argument.

 

Are we though to work as tree care professionals, or teachers to the rest of society..the public? Other sector industry...? or both? And will we be recompensed for this additional burden?

( Not very likely frankly)

I can see no other way forward. Tree valuation/perception must change. Someone else has posted this earlier ( perhaps Andrew?) It is repeated over and over on threads Im sure.

Forum discussion is only weakly populated by the educated/consultant/approved individual working in arboriculture anyway ( Ill wager the majority are contractual skilled labour )....What does that tell you about attitudes in this country?

 

I was only suggesting that consultant arbs should "consult"

Engineers should "engineer" etc etc...Its not rocket science. It is the only practical solution to the industry's difficulties. Without the professional recognition, we cannot hope to be engaged with other sector industry on an equal footing. I for one will not be "baying" for recognition!

 

So Cassian , how does it feel to come back to the uk for double the work load, half the money and an industry in which your efforts are thwarted or ignored or regarded with some suspicion and disbelief?

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

I was only suggesting that consultant arbs should "consult"

Engineers should "engineer" etc etc...Its not rocket science. It is the only practical solution to the industry's difficulties. Without the professional recognition, we cannot hope to be engaged with other sector industry on an equal footing. I for one will not be "baying" for recognition!

 

So Cassian , how does it feel to come back to the uk for double the work load, half the money and an industry in which your efforts are thwarted or ignored or regarded with some suspicion and disbelief?

 

in answer to the first paragraph, i agree and as much difficulty as there is in achieving a high (PHD) level of recognition it is essential, or this will never be taken as seriously as other profesions. We need top guns to shout about it, those with the letters and clout behind thier names to bring about change.

 

we also need far more protection for trees than is currently in action, and before anyone says a word if the system works WTF is all this contradictory evidence? Trees are NOT valued, i could take photos of at least three developments not a stones throw from my house where trees got hammered and the new ones planted are now dead, despite some of these being very expensive large planted "dawyck" beeches.

 

as for the last bit, crikey, aint this a depresssing situation!