CAVAT Training

[Bundle 2]

I agree - putting a value on a tree makes it much easier to argue for its retention (or indeed a reasoned discussion about its worth in the light of other development options).

 

Maybe. The hope that was conveyed in the post above though seemed to be, central to it's purpose, a matter of "reasoned" discussion. Perhaps I am hopelessly idealistic?

I was introduced to Helliwell many years ago. Im not gonna start telling you how it works. Wildly different values can be outcomed from the subjective process.

Perhaps the documents are subjective. Perhaps only the weight or consideration that is afforded the doc depends on the level of qual the arb has attained in the first instance.

Not a great deal of experience when it comes to writing reports despite some training in this area but hope springs eternal in that arboriculture is as much a science as ever it is a matter of opinion.

That said, you seem to understand well enough that differing systems are best used in certain situations and vicky vercky.

If we could all agree to stick to any given system at one time, we might, (might,) just mange a "reasoned" discussion!!

 

Hope springs eternal!!

cheers mate.

EDIT : you've just fried me now Hama....Im not gonna read into this more than the question postulated. If you are suggesting that without said consideration, the framework evaluation is useless, then Id have to disagree. Refer to Hope brother!!

We need not to be laughed off stage when we spew the kind of numbers we instinctively know to be right & proper because

a) the system is subjective

b) the system is bettered elsewhere by a more appropriate scale of evaluation

c) The suits dont like it and just cos it happens to be opposed to the proposals they are trying to justify

 

Value is Key no?

Edited July 2, 2010 by Bundle 2

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

What is the point in A value that isnt real and has no roots in true value?

 

we need a way to quantify-

 

Dust filtering

 

global cooling/shading

 

The air conditioning effect

 

mental health and behavioural benifits

 

Flood prevention/minimisation/errosion

 

tourist input

 

etc etc etc

 

trees do far more than we currently consider.

 

london is one of the greenest BIG cities in the world, if not THE most greened city, hence one of the major atractions of London

[Bundle 2]

Yep...you got me there mate. The need for a comprehensive and in some way approved evaluation system seems blindingly obvious. We are Arbs. Id be a bit vexed if we did not recognise this!

I did not mean to have a go at Tony S but his comment that you just pick a system and go seems to be the issue. It s all about which system you pick. Well, thats just my take on it. But I cant see a reasoned discussion if the evaluation is less than complete and so in some way lacking the logical premis of "reasoned discussion"....this appears not to be the experience of those sults doing the job. How depressing must that be??!

Just ignore me Hama, probably got my wires crossed as usual!!

[Amelanchier]

There is no such thing as 'true' value. Any value that we determine in an economic sense is a dervative of materials, labour, benefits, demand etc. Furthermore there is no perfect final valuation system - it depends on who is valuing it and for what purpose. That's why we talk about market value when looking at houses rather than rebuild value (which is factored into house insurance) and why art is priced beyond sheer materials and time. A classic car is worth less to the scrap man than it is to the collector.

 

The value of something is what people agree it is. With trees that is never going to be either holistic or incontrovertible.

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

Yep...you got me there mate. The need for a comprehensive and in some way approved evaluation system seems blindingly obvious. We are Arbs. Id be a bit vexed if we did not recognise this!

I did not mean to have a go at Tony S but his comment that you just pick a system and go seems to be the issue. It s all about which system you pick. Well, thats just my take on it. But I cant see a reasoned discussion if the evaluation is less than complete and so in some way lacking the logical premis of "reasoned discussion"....this appears not to be the experience of those sults doing the job. How depressing must that be??!

Just ignore me Hama, probably got my wires crossed as usual!!

 

I would never ignore anyones remarks, and certainly not yours Tim:biggrin:

 

There is no such thing as 'true' value. Any value that we determine in an economic sense is a dervative of materials, labour, benefits, demand etc. Furthermore there is no perfect final valuation system - it depends on who is valuing it and for what purpose. That's why we talk about market value when looking at houses rather than rebuild value (which is factored into house insurance) and why art is priced beyond sheer materials and time. A classic car is worth less to the scrap man than it is to the collector.

 

The value of something is what people agree it is. With trees that is never going to be either holistic or incontrovertible.

 

Sometimes forced intervention is appropriate, like the european council fineing us for our apathetic attitude to the biodiversity framework, or poeples choices to valuation values.

 

It is the job of the professionals to ascertain what is the true value of a thing, and that valuation HAS to be based on ALL points, essential for taking away the bias from the individual, whos opinion wopuld be based on his or her or thier persuasions at the time.

 

can WE remain Unbiassed? power corrupts, and many of those in powerful positions value club membership and job creation over real change and effect.

 

Arboriculture, bio diversity innitiatives,global warming bodies and social/human health experts have to tie in, communicate co operate before we can ascertain the true values we attach to trees.

 

any system up till then is falling way short of true values, we should be leading the way on this in the U.k but instead, like many arb related things we are now falling behind the forward thinking naturaly inclusive Europeans, particulary the Swedes and Germans.

[Bundle 2]

Tony said..."The value of something is what people agree it is...."

 

This is a very important point.

My house is not covered to its market value..it is covered for the amount it would cost to replace it. Considerably less infact!

[Amelanchier]

Hama, how do you put a price on beauty?

 

Replacement cost? Maintentance cost? Peoples willingness to pay for tree retention? Willingness to pay to prevent tree loss? Total value of ecosystem services? Increase of property or land price?

 

None even come close to 'valuing' the aesthetic of trees.

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

Hama, how do you put a price on beauty?

 

Replacement cost? Maintentance cost? Peoples willingness to pay for tree retention? Willingness to pay to prevent tree loss? Total value of ecosystem services? Increase of property or land price?

 

None even come close to 'valuing' the aesthetic of trees.

 

If the national trust spent one tenth of thier allocation to maintenance of the "beauty" of the architecture and arts held within!

 

Are tree values of less importance than the great arts and architecture?

 

You cant put a value on "beauty" persay, or can you?

 

beyonces butt is insured for 5 million dollars?

 

And whilst i agree she has a fine booty, it does illustrate our rather twisted sence of "value"

 

eco system services?

 

what value to put on a bio diverse and therfore robust genetic pool, and all the services rendered by worms (drainage), bees (pollunation) and bats (pest control)?

[Bundle 2]

If the national trust spent one tenth of thier allocation to maintenance of the "beauty" of the architecture and arts held within!

 

Are tree values of less importance than the great arts and architecture?

 

You cant put a value on "beauty" persay, or can you?

 

beyonces butt is insured for 5 million dollars?

 

And whilst i agree she has a fine booty, it does illustrate our rather twisted sence of "value"

 

eco system services?

 

what value to put on a bio diverse and therefore robust genetic pool, and all the services rendered by worms (drainage), bees (pollunation) and bats (pest control)?

 

 

You are soooo right Tony. The reality though is that you can only sell your grandmother for what you can get for her. You can hold out for more til you are blue in the face...but that may not result in a sale......!!

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

You are soooo right Tony. The reality though is that you can only sell your grandmother for what you can get for her. You can hold out for more til you are blue in the face...but that may not result in a sale......!!

 

We arent selling trees benifits, we are trying to make a set of guidlines, a quantifiable method of calculating the benifits associated with trees.

 

This work is going on as we speak, my fear is that whilst they are all debating the legalities, formats and nuences, trees will continue to be low on the legal agenda.

 

why do we insist on fighting Europe? why waste money retaining some idealistic national pride and doing it our way when the europeans are ahead of the game.

 

we are so busy talking polotics that were falling behind the very real efforts going on elswhere.