Ryanfalkland

9 hours ago, Spruce Pirate said:

Wow!  This thread grew legs since I last looked at it.

 

Can only find one picture of serious blow on the computer, taken by the harvester driver.  I'm the little orange blob in the middle of it.  Serious blow is best described as "challenging" and it seems a lot of people are worried this is what you're getting yourself into. 

 

By the sounds of it you're not actually going to be dealing with any serious windblow events - the landowner will do that, so you're really looking at single and a few trees down at a time which should be bread and butter to your cutters if they are experienced enough (no need to post a cv, I'll believe you have access to proper cutters).

 

FISA guides, as I think I said before, are a pretty good starting point for generic stuff, and available for free from the FISA website.  Other than that, as said before, shut the trail first, keep it shut until the hazard is removed.  No lone working.  Cutters to be fully PPE'd up.  Saws and equipment to be in good working order.  Emergency access agreed - location, type of access (4*4? Mountain Rescue? Helicopter), nearest hospital etc.  Assess tension in stems before and during cuts.  Restrain root plates with winch if required.  Re-evaluate after each cut.  Banksman/woman may be required.  All these in no particular order.

Great, thanks for all the info lads.

Yeh the area we lease just isn't big enough to have a major event that we would be responsible for. 

Think i have everything i need now. 

Cheers to all.

And if anyone wants to get involved with the project you would be most welcomed. 

22 minutes ago, Steven P said:

I haven't read the full conversation so apologies if I am repeating anything.

 

From the first few comments he wants to reduce his volunteers workload which is a good thing but I also bet that before they can walk in with a chainsaw some authority will want to see the paperwork. Bear in mind that as a volunteer they might only have a half day or day free each week that they can do the job. To keep the mountain bike track open then they would need to assess the job and do it on the same day.

 

Now I am making assumptions here of course and might be very wrong.

 

So volunteers can work on a Sunday morning . The authorities who own the wood stop working on a Friday night till Monday. It wouldn't be possible to present them with a full risk assessment and do the job that day.

 

So to help the OP a generic RA and MS might let his volunteers get on there, do an onsite assesment and do the job on a Sunday morning

Yeh mate kinda spot on.

Ive been to other trails and seen the devastation caused by windblow. I build trails at many locations in Scotland and have seen it first hand. In one instance the fc basically felled an entire area.

So i get where you guys are coming from.

But i do know that in the last 18 years at Falkland we have never had to deal with any more than a couple of trees on trail at any give time. Id say on average we deal with this once every couple of years.

I know the British weather is unpredictable but come on you have to play the numbers. From what ive told you and assuming you believe me the chances of a catastrophic windblow following the exact corridor along our trail at this location is highly unlikely. 

Im no expert but the club has got by the last 6 years with no more than an ms181 lol.

We dont have to react instantly,  a week or two is acceptable. But if left to the landowner it could be a couple of months. 

Are we possibly geographically lucky with the site and how its positioned ?

I get what are saying guys, im just struggling to imagine how its possibly to have a major windblow site THAT WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR in our small corridor.  Its insanely unlikely. Ive been riding there for 18 years almost and the worst ive ever seen on our trails is one maybe two trees tops blocking the trails at any given time. And such an incident rarely occurs. We have to be reasonably practical about it. 

But yes worst case scenario and we have a major incident we would need to look at sub contractors which could break us. I highly doubt this will ever happen. There just isn't a great deal of windblow at falkland. 

I will discuss this with the landowner though as it is a valid point. Not sure how it could be worded in an agreement though. 

The heads of terms are still open for discussion which is a good thing.

20 minutes ago, Khriss said:

I think this is the rub here - landowner wants work done, he is liable for all operations on this site, he wants you to be absolutely competent, he owns those trees and yet doesn't want to pay for them or associated works....... What ! Not doubting you mate, but I would take a whole different view on this now. K

No sorry,

We have leased land off the owner to build our trails. 

The leased area is a corridor through the woods. The corridor is the marked trail plus 10 meters either side. 

If a tree falls within our leased area and is blocking our trails or dangerous we have to rectify this as its in our leased area. Given the limited size of our leased area a windblown catastrophe that we would be solely responsible for is highly unlikely. 

If a tree falls outside our leased area then the landowner is responsible. 

This is stated on our lease and management plan and is free of ambiguity. 

The land owner is not trying to screw us over. Its a simple defining boundary line and the responsibility of it is defined from the trees point of origin. 

If we were to leave the responsibility for windblown trees solely with the landowner the likelihood would be that it wont be rectified as quickly as we like and we might have trails closed for too long. This would impact the business.

Does this make sense?

Actually quite difficult to find some decent pictures as all are focused on mountain bikers.

Here is a couple videos of the trails.

https://m.pinkbike.com/video/244493/

https://m.pinkbike.com/video/330292/

All the trails are on here.

51 minutes ago, The avantgardener said:

Pretty sure LANTRA do a Windblown Tree Course now, the would be a Generic Risk Assessment for that course.

I would pre empt the work by having your experienced guys do a survey of the trees along the track and remove any obvious trees that could create future problems.

Im actually considering it tbh but we dont have the cash yet. Hopefully going for some funding soon though. Its an idea.

Only problem is the landowner isn't happy with just being certified, he also wants proof of experience.  I know The FC take a similar stance on chainsaw operations. 

15 hours ago, Wonky said:

Here, I’m sure some guys have seen this, but how about the OP watch it and see some real in the woods stuff.

 

you will find it hard to say what a right way or a wrong way. Apart from if it’s done wrong you just may not be ever doing it again.

cheers

 

 

Lol, yeh there's not much that size at Falkland mate.

Am i going to have to post our cutters CVs and certs on here before anyone believes me lol. One of our volunteers has been doing it for 20 odd years. 

I really do appreciate your trying to drum it into my brain that its a very dangerous task and i do believe you. Thats why im not doing the cutting lol.

Cheers for the vid.

10 hours ago, agrimog said:

quickly looking back through this thread, nobody so far has come up with an answer that ryan can give back to the estate manager....one quick one...." right, the trails are blocked by one/several windblown trees, youll need to shut the particular trails till we can carry out an assesment and come up with a safe felling plan " the manager is only looking for something he can pass upstairs to cover any disruptions. once you have the breathing space, take your 2 experienced guys in and make a plan, covering all your options and equipment availability, a tractor and winch dictate a different plan from just a manual winch, or even no winch................wait till your in the middle of 30-40 square yards of edge side thats come down on the windward side of a hill, and blocking your only road in or out.........tell me about risk assesments and method statements then

 

We are only responsible for a ten meter corridor either side of the trails as per our lease agreement. In the event of a catastrophic windblown event the responsibility would revert back to the land owner. But i like how you thinking of all scenarios thanks.

We dont have the cash to bring in heavy plant for years 1 to 3.  My hope is that we can manage with big saws, 4x4s and winches. We have a decent relationship with the landowner and im sure in a major event he would send his boys in to help out.

10 minutes ago, Rough Hewn said:

You've got my number now Ryan,
Text me yours and I'll let you know when I'm driving north.
I've got an off road 4x4 and winch,
Tirfor,ropes and big saws.

Cheers dude.

10 minutes ago, Rough Hewn said:

 

I'll be up your way in about 3 months.
Put me down for a days volunteering.
Or give me a call for advice.
Saul
07376803384

 

Seriously? LOL.  Cheers. 

The land manager asked me, what will you do in the event of windblown trees blocking the trails. Just trying to get a plan together. 

Until this actually occurs we dont need cutters. If your serious its appreciated though. One of our guys is a mountain biker doing it for free the other might want a little something as hes not. The more the merrier. 

You are completely wrong.  I am information gathering,  nothing has happened yet. You are completely misinterpreting the situation here. You might not be swearing but you definitely cast the first insult. You are making me out to be a crook without any proof. You are condescending and very unhelpful.  Our organisation is trying build a bike park with volunteers,  the easiest option is to sub it out but have no cash to do so. 

I apologise if my swearing has offended anyone with good intent. 

4 hours ago, Mike Hill said:

Can you please put some pictures up of the kind of forest it is?

 

The risk increases with the tree size and level of hindrance as well as terrain.

Will do, loads online from the old bike park.

Will i pm them?

3 hours ago, Rough Hewn said:

You've completely misunderstood my point John.
Are you aware of the amount of cowboys and charlatans on Arbtalk.
I've met a couple.
As for the thread in question, I stand by everything I've said.
How can someone who knows nothing of our trade write a rams for one of the most dangerous activities in Arb.
I don't write rams for low level flying???
Or construction.
Encouraging this type of behaviour is reckless to say the least.
I'm not trolling, I'm pointing out that it's dangerous and potentially lethal.
The OP should not be writing rams for this job.

Once again not reading it properly. The OP will advise on the site specific risks and Methods at the time.  Ive stated this many times. 

I used to supervise working parties in high voltage substations including civils, cable pulling, overhead lines and some big ass cranes.  I reviewed many RAMS in my time and i know for a fact that many of the risks and countermeasures are repeated. THESE ARE THE ONE IM AFTER.

You dont know me, my background or my cutters,

You have just assumed im a cowboy lol.

Your right i know fuck all about dealing with windblown trees. Not once have i said otherwise. 

Ok one more time for those who dont get what im saying. 

IM NOT DOING THE CUTTING. 

Im here for advice so that i can have the work carried out in safe manner, hence not a cowboy.

NOBODY IS DOING ANYTHING UNTIL ALL PARTIES INCLUDING THE 2 QUALIFIED CUTTERS ARE HAPPY.

The cutters are doing this not as subcontractors but as direct volunteers of the charity therefore the templates Will need to be ours. The site specific input will from the cutters.

If you think im lying about the competency of our cutters then ask yourself WHY? 

Without the correct tickets the land owner wont agree to it anyway. 

What we have here is a classic case keyboard gangsters at the windup.

FOR THOSE THAT DID HELP,

THANKS.

1 hour ago, John Shutler said:

Once Again several members of this forum having a pissing contest to see who can be the biggest twat on the forum

 

maybe someone could actually offer some constructive advice

 

You’d have thought all the “experienced” cutters commenting on the thread from their bedroom in mummy’s house might have been able to suggest that the RA and MS statement not only talk about the process of cutting the windblown tree but also about emergency details, ie nearest access for ambulance, first aid facilities, who’s in charge, what the “standard” kit setup is, signing and guarding the area to prevent public access etc

 

hopwfully these are are few ideas to get you moving on this project. I would also look at the FISA guidelines and the Arboricultiral association for RA templates and method statements

 

any problems and I be happy to send mine over for this type of work

 

good luck 

 

Finally a good guy that knows what he is talking about.  Thats exactly what i was saying.  I write rams all the time. On mine, id say most of the risks and countermeasures repeat themselves on almost every one. This will be the same with chainsaw usage. There will be some Risks that are on every set of rams you use. Im not after the site specific ones. 

I would be very grateful for an example so i get an idea and head start. Im trying to make my cutters job a little easier. Also as its volunteer work under a charity the rams would have to be in the charities name. So asking the cutters to set the layout and templates would just cofuse matters. 

I make a decent template with everything i know and the cutters can review and fill in the blanks.

I'll PM you my Email Address if thats ok.

2 hours ago, Rough Hewn said:

But you tell me so much...

So let me explain my comment.
For every single saw ticket you complete, there is several pages about risk assessment and method.
If you're "highly trained" volunteers have the correct tickets and experience, they should know everything you have asked.
And as for a complete amateur coming onto a professional arborist website and asking highly suspicious questions.
Yes one of us is a helmet/cowboy.

Read it properly dickhead. Im trying to gain a head start and find an example of Rams nothing more. You question my cutters without even knowing who they are or what tickets they have. You just assumed the worst and took the opportunity to have a dig without any constructive comment. A cowboy would just go cut it, not go through investigative means for an answer.  

5 minutes ago, stihlmadasever said:

Well done 

You've just reinforced my point.

Walloper ha!

Nobody cares, Yer patter is pish, go troll somewhere else. 

8 hours ago, Spruce Pirate said:

Why aren't your cutters doing this for you?

 

Sit down with them and the relevant FISA guide and you should be able to knock something up as a generic.  Leave plenty of space for writing up the job specific details as each tree could be very very different depending size, species, location etc.

I had thought of this and will most certainly be looking for their input. I just want to minimise their workload so they dont get put off helping.  If i at least have all the templates ready to go i can then write the final assessment via their input and allow these guys to get on with it.

4 hours ago, jfc said:

Hi,

Some good advice above.

I know a guy who lives nearby with windblow tickets and into biking. Niall C. I will message him and see if he is able to help.

The arb association used to have rams templates available to download, think you need to be a member to access them now.

Is this on Falkland Estate?

I'd love to see more mtb trails in Fife.

Cheers,

Jan.
 

Thanks,

His name is familiar, hes probably on our Facebook page. 

Was kinda hoping this might happen. Our present cutter is very experienced and a mountain biker, but we certainly would welcome more volunteers.  I just want to do as much prep work as possible for them so they dont get put off by extra workload. 

Its great when guys actually help. Cheers dude.

7 minutes ago, stihlmadasever said:

Clearly you belong on the brexit thread!

You would fit right in there

Really,  thats it? Cut me some aloe Vera for this burn. Although If your cutting is as good as your chat i fear you wouldn't even manage that. 

26 minutes ago, spuddog0507 said:

sorry i cant see how you can write a template for any forestry job and use it time after time as every job and job site hold different hazzards i.e ground conditions,gradeant,loose rocks etc you get the picture, i have been writing risk assessments with in forestry work now for quite a few years and if i had a pound for every one i have done i would be quite well off, just after christmas i wrote some thing on a risk assessment that i have never written before and that was very very wet spongey ground with very high water content then had to ammend this after lunch, with up to our knees in water as the moss layer on the surface started to break up hence 2 off us piss wet through, are these cutters ticketed up for windblown ? or just some lads with a saw ticket like CS31 ? as i said before it should be the cutters with the expierance doing the risk assessment as they should know what they are looking at and know the risks if they do this task on a regular basis.

Cheers for the input. Appreciate it. As i said earlier, my guys are both qualified for windblown trees. I understand a minimum of 2 is required for this task and we have two.  I know there will be many different scenarios in your game but our area consists of one species of tree and is relatively small and consistent with respect to the surroundings and footing. I understand each job will be assessed dynamically however im assuming that there are risks and countermeasures that are consistent on all rams. Its just these im after at the moment.  

I do appreciate your help cheers.

6 hours ago, Rough Hewn said:

Ask your 2 "highly qualified volunteers "
They should have all the answers you need.
Or qualified but completely inexperienced?
Maybe get a professional who is experienced?

Finally the one has arrived. You took your time. You know nothing about me and the cutters i have on board. These guys are volunteers and i want to minimise their workload thats all. Cheers for your shite input helmet. 

Ok good advice thanks.

Our cutters are very experienced so no problem there. 

Ive been in the construction industry long enough to know about competency and experience and would not take this task on without thinking it through.  

I am fully aware that you cannot properly complete a risk assessment without seeing the task at hand however, i would assume that most of the risks are generic, these are the ones i would like to know. I want to create a template with all the foreseeable / generic risks in place so that when we come to do the job there is minimal delay. At this point we can assess the job and add it to the partially completed template. 

Your completely right, i couldn't possibly write the RAMS on my own hence this conversation.  

Thanks.

Hi All,

I am trying to create an action plan for the removal of windblown trees on a new proposed mountain bike park in Fife. I need to write method statement and risk assessment to accompany this plan. 

I have plenty of experience creating RAMS and have all the templates at my finger tips but i am unfamiliar with chainsaw operations and the removal of windblown trees. 

I would be extremely if someone could send me an example method statement and risk assessment for this specific task.

We are a charity on the verge of creating a top bike park in Falkland, Fife. We rely on the good will of others to make things happen. We must react quickly to windblown trees across the trails and must submit a plan of action to the land owner to prove we are able to do so.

I have 2 volunteers fully qualified to carry out the work i just need to do the Paper work and im sorted.

Please help.