Jamie

Under IRATA guidelines I'd say no.

It should be 2 independent connections. If the first zigzag or its carabiner were to fail you would have no redundant back up.  Multiple attachments to a central point on a haeness are ok though.

Hi, I've not been here for a while, with it not being my industry any more.

Regarding ASAPs. I've been using them in the rope access game since they were released. From experience the ASAP lock is much better than the other versions. For work positioning it's much more user friendly (coming from someone who loved using shunts).

I see no reason why it wouldn't be a suitable and approved back up. When used with an absorbica and a sternal or dorsal attachment point it complies with the standards as a fall arrest device.

I'm sure this has been discussed before but while in trees (and in my current role climbing around truss bridges or when scaffolders use fall arrest lanyards) my big concern is what is below you and what you are likely to hit on the way down, they also become ineffective at lower heights (around 5 or so meters) in a fall factor 2 scenario.

 For interest here's a picture of a team of us examining the treetop walkway at Westonbirt Arboretum with some good ASAP practice (the most tree related thing I do at work nowadays) . 

And one of us examining some of the severn tunnel shafts in Sudbrook.

Tom, you have hit the nail on the head, those are my thoughts exactly.

A few points, not all rope firms are IRATA members and don't have to follow IRATA guides. They frequently use IRATA trained techs but don't always have level 3s.

Hi,

Sorry for my lack of responses.

Jake,

The two lines are separate entities. An example would be a working line knotted with a carabiner to a sling round an beam etc. The back up could be anchored onto the same beam. If installing anchors ( such as petzl coeur hangers) you would have the two lines anchored separately with the option of equalising them with a y-hang etc.

Each line is anchored separately and is an independent system but can be terminated at the same anchorage point. Does that make sense.i don't have many pictures of access anchors so this will have to do.

I had to haul someone out a chamber, the two gold deviation pulleys had the working and back up lines, 2 independent ropes but anchored around the same point.

Marc,

Ive only climbed a few smaller trees with an ASAP, so I can't comment properly on it's performance but I have used them in offshore environments where the salt gets at them and they dont work quite as well.

Hi y'all,

I've not been on here for quite a while, but loitered in the shadows from time to time.

My background:

2003 I got my tree climbing and chainsaw tickets,

2010 got my IRATA level1, I'm now a level 3 and via a convoluted route working on shore, offshore, commercial, domestic, petrochemical and railways, I'm now railway structures examiner.

Having read through a fair chunk of this thread, I see a lot I want to correct.

To my best knowledge work at height (WAH) falls into 3 catagories,

1. Work restraint, you can't get to the edge to

2. Fall arrest, you climb with your kit being there as a back up (energy absorbers with scaffolders hooks or a Petzl  ASAP)

3. Work positioning, where you are in suspension (rope access and tree work)

The IRATA rope access system relies on two independent systems. A working line and a redundant back up line.

These can be anchored at the same unquestionably sound anchor but each on two systems. E.g. 2x wire sling, 2x carabiner 2x rope.

Every rope job I've been on has had a ropes long enough to reach a safe place / ground either as part of the kit or as part of a rescue bag. I would say that in the tree game both ropes should reach the ground.

Back ups.

A few years back Petzl withdrew the waiver they had for rope techs to use the Shunt as a back up as it is designed as an ascender. They then released the ASAP to replace it. The ASAP is a back up device on an energy absorber designed to be used on the sternal or dorsal attachment point to keep a casualty in a vertical position. It is not a work positioning tool. Depending on the activity the back up can be anchored a short distance away to keep the back up safe (welding, birning, grinding).

Rope systems

I'm happy working on both tree and IRATA systems and having both tool sets has allowed me to probl

Using 2 ropes.

I've had to use two ropes while tree climbing as part of IRATA jobs using a Shunt as a backup and an ASAP.

Is a redundant back up suitable for tree work? I feel a bit of a hypocrite for having a view despite not tree climbing anymore, but...

Will it slow down tree work? yes. In the rope game 2 points of contact means a minimum of 2 points, no changing over to one point etc.

Do you have to comply? Not all rope firms are IRATA members so don't fully comply with the IRATA ICOP, I imagine the same will apply to the tree world. If you can write a RAMS and risk assess it out, be my guest, but I wouldn't like to try and persuade an insurer orca court room if the worst happened.

Will it make people safer? That's down to the individual. I've worked with many who are worse than a man down. 2 lines, 1 which is a redundant backup makes climbing to a casualty easier.

Will it cost more and drive people to use non compliant companies? Who knows but maybe. The main clients who would ask for certs and compliance docs will be the commercial side, not the domestic market.

Anyway, those are my ramblings, feel free to ask about the IRATA side of things as that's my bag these days.

Oh and happy new year.

Jamie

What is the rescue scenario?

As an IRATA 3 we get more curveball rescues than you can shake a stick at.

The irata system makes use of carabiner chains all the time.

If the casualty is in a descender climb to them, we tend to make a carabiners chain out of 3 steel screwgates and connect from their central D / bridge to your descender carabiners (make sure you're in your descending gear first), lower them onto you then descend with a braking crab.

There are many many techniques to get someone out of a loaded ascender. Google snatch rescue, counterbalance rescue, hard link rescue, loop rescue.

Jamie

It has been a long time. branching out into new ventures. Missing the trees though.

I have previously cut most of the stump i can down, it's now down below ground level. Are the piranha a standard chain. i just don't fancy changing chains every 10 minutes. (or more importantly, getting the random chainsaw user to change chains every 5 mins).

I've looked at stumpgrinding but it's pretty inaccessible and atop a crumbling wall 15m above a railway line.

I've thought about slinging it witha rubber duck and teasing it out but the client are concerned about ripping the wall apart.

Jamie

Hi all,

Quick question, we have a job removing part of a stump next to wall that is being re built. how well do the tungsten chains stand up to cutting through soil and all the crap buried within a stump. I've never used one. i've searched the old forums etc but looking for some reassurance. if they will be ok, the company has no problem buying a few as throw away items so longevity isnt too much of an issue.

jamie

I like to try and use the easiest, least gear intensive set up I can. Keeping it simple.

I personally haven't used ID's much, the company I worked with for 4 years used Rigs but phased them out due to the rope wearing out the braking section of the faceplate prematurely. The company i'm now working for uses ID's and I can't stand them.

Bjørgvin, If it's a shallow roof i'd be tempted to drop two lines down and run with an ASAP on one line and a Shunt on a cowstail / Grillion on the other. You can push the shunt up to use it as an ascender.

If the roof was steeper i'd want to use a Rig over an ID. much better, more fluid without that annoying anti panic feature.

Jamie

It's tricky to get in with companies, it tends to be who you know. I'm a 3 now.

If your mate has any deveg skills try the geotech companies, can, rock solutions, trac, geo-rope....try the Rigg access forum. Australia is a good place to get into. lots of work and very highly paid. I've heard of folk out there working over caustic soda tanks pulling in £500 a (week) day.

Search other IRATA threads on here, i've put a feew things up.

I rarely do trees now

Jamie

Cash, depends on your tree work. Average level 1 wage i've found is c. £12 per hour. Geo that may be 12 hours on a mattock, span-ex gun. rock drill, spinner or hauling mesh. my worst shift was 3 days shovelling and breaking slate in Macyclelth, or however its spelt.

As for hours, Assessors and trainers tend not to look to favorably on thousands of geo hours, dont get me wrong, a lot are spent doing some complex rope work, a lot are also spent on very simple drops rigged off yesterdays grouted rebar.

Jamie

If you can get on with a Geo company they'll give folks tons of chainsaw work.

QTS work all over the country and the tree boys go ahead of the rock squads. I've heard Geo Rope have a contract out in Afganisthan if that appeals.

Jamie

Some videos for anyone into SRT, hauling and rescues.

Not watched them but food for thought,

think they're American

Rope Access Project - YouTube

Jamie

got an old sthil 08 once, when i used to drive for pizza hut i was given a pirated copy of Alien Vs Predator before it hit the cinema.

Jamie

Use a rig, I'Ds have anti pannic functions are bit and clumsy. Rigs are smaller and well good and can be locked off easily.

Just don't slam the handle into the store position when a rope is loaded, you knacker the insides of it.

Jamie

Passed my IRATA level 3 the other day so i think my time for tree cutting will diminish greatly now:sad: one door opens another closes.

The 3 is a hard hard assessment, the assessor openly told me he was going to beast me all day.

Thats it.

Jamie

Rigg Access is the forum.

The Best way in for wood cutters is to get into Geotechnical squad, the ones i know are CAN, TRAC, Rock Solutions, Geo Rope and QTS group. you'd pretty much need a PTS ticket as well for the railway but your employing company needs to sponser you.

You can get in as just a rope tech, you can end up painting and cleaning stuff. I've been silo cleaning (with a confined space ticket), bird netting, gutter fixing........

You start off the IRATA system as a Level 1. you are trusted with very little until you can prove yourself. Level 2 deems you competant and level 3 makes you a supervisor.

You don't have to be an IRATA company or work within IRATA guidelines, but like everything it shows competance and training.

How's that?

Jamie

AAmsteel is dyneema, it has a low melting point, not something i'd want to choke up with all that hot hot friction.

And it doesn't stretch or givr so not much use for shock absorbtion. go check out the drop tests done by DMM on dyneema and nylon slings

Jamie

A lot of folk on this thread need bitch slapped.

The guy asked a legitimate question, give him an answer.

I'd say use a fishermans knot, also called a barrel or scaffold knot. as with all knots make sure its tied, dressed and set properly before use. before you climb, clip it to something and load it to make sure its b*****d tight.

give it a decent length of tail on the non working end, they do tend to pull through slightly over time. IRATA says 4", i think work at height legistlation says 2 time rope diameter. i prefer to er on the side of caution.

Jamie

I like to be able to see my whipping, thats all.

Back on topic, they look good.

Jamie

hey guys what measurments do you use for splicing 10mm friction cord

For a standard full fid splice on class 1. the fid will be 21 x rope diameter. so a 10mm rope will have a 210mm fid, a 70mm short fid and 140mm long fid.

Read the instructions and all that will make sense

Jamie

i got a small crossheaded screwdriver and filed it down, makes a good spike with a comfy handle to work with

Jamie

The pulsarail bomber is ok, but nothing special. I was given it by work. In heavy rain it does let the water in after a while.

The windened storm flap is a good idea but i cut the tab off as it gets in the way. the extra tab bends back round and gets stuck to the velcro then it wont close and the storm flap flaps around and slaps you in the face in the wind.

I was given mine by work, I'd spend more money on a better jacket to be honest.

Jamie

that would be good use of the many billions it cost to build,