Re-pollard of ancient Willow

[sean freeman]

You can be assured that Guy is made of tougher stuff and has been posting on forums for long enough not to be put out by 'forum sports'.

 

I do think however that there has been some misreading of the silent voice in his posts, in other words I suspect had he been speaking on the phone or in person the communication might have been less spikey...although I could be completely wrong there too... :>)

[David Humphries]

There is nothing wrong with a little humour and rib tickling, I get stick left right and centre when I am being a silly billy.

 

but being as childish as i am, i cannot willnot resist the urge to return fire!

 

& sadly it has to be said, that's exactly what makes moderation on a forum like this more difficult than it really should be.

 

I think a little 'reigning in' wouldn't go a miss to be frank.

 

 

 

 

.

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

& sadly it has to be said, that's exactly what makes moderation on a forum like this more difficult than it really should be.

 

I think a little 'reigning in' wouldn't go a miss to be frank.

 

 

 

 

.

 

No REALLY!

[Fungus]

& sadly it has to be said, that's exactly what makes moderation on a forum like this more difficult than it really should be. I think a little 'reigning in' wouldn't go a miss to be frank.

 

Which should be a much easier job, if some forum members would refrain from sending slanderous and offensive personal mails and e-mails, forcing me to (again) explicit my intentions.

[treeseer]

Thanks to Mr. Loggit for correcting my misidentification of that coincidentally concentrically curving branch. I admit that I was wrong in that guess.

 

Thanks also to Mr. Rover for trying to cool the digging dialog here, and accurately observing the difficulty in admitting erroneous observations (like mine)and judgments and conclusions. This has gone way beyond pollarding a willow, but I'll reply to Fungus' response to the Tilia root contacting the oak stem.

 

- both trees are standing close to a compacted dirt path without possibilities to send out roots to collect water at that side, even though the Tilia tried to penetrate the soil from the trunk base with three ill-developed roots.

 

OK, knowing more about the site helps. Yes, the 3 downrights are ill-developed compared to the circling portion that constrains aka girdles the oak buttress. They could develop better if conditions along the footpath improved by 'fixing" in hama's term the aeration and biological and other conditions

 

- the lime root is not strangling or girdling, it just touches on and around or "embraces" the base of the oak at and above ground level.

 

today's loving embrace can be tomorrow's strangulation. Many human marriages gone bad attest to that. As the two trees grow in diameter, how can conflict and constriction not occur?

 

- grafting will not happen as both tree species are mutually incompatible for merging cambium and bark because of major genetic differences.

 

yes that seems obvious. also, most girdling roots of the same tree seldom graft to their trunks, due to tissue incompatibility. That thin-barked magnolia SGR was over 16 cm and pressing on the buttress for half a century, but did not graft.

 

- pruning the root of the lime would implicate cutting it off from its mayor water supply basin, a loss which can not be restored on the short run, if it can even be compensated for at all

 

i would suggest fixing the soil might allow the 3 downrights to make up for some of the loss, and new roots can form elsewhere too. If the timing is righ--the end of the growing season, like now, that will help, but not having seen it in person hinders further comment or judgment.

 

-and removing soil doesn't prevent this type of "girdling" roots to (re)develop, because they (for the greater part) stay above ground without penetrating the soil.

 

I agree, so I did not say "prevent", but said Keeping soil off that area would *discourage* infection, and regirdling. some arborist monitoring will be useful.

 

- besides, the surrounding woodland is invested with M. giganteus, A. ostoyae, G. australe and K. deusta, so what are the chances, the wound will not be infected with spores or rhizomorphs from close by, even though the soil is removed ?

 

Again, new info can change things. Not being a bookie, I am not going to lay odds on that. I always assume spores of decay fungi are swirling around, so I try to minimize wounding, and slant cuts for minimal exposure. Applying a sealant to minimize infection might be considered as well. Also, root tissue is generally more resistant to infection that branch or stem, plus a young tree may be even more resistant. But reasonable precautions can still be taken.

 

- I don't see how your "option" fits in a forest ecological approach to trees being very complicated organisms interacting with one another and with thousands of other organisms, which are part of the dynamics of their tree species specific ecosystems.

 

Here I must be bold enough to suggest an alternative viewpoint: I never claimed to be taking a forest ecological approach, but that does not mean I'm totally ignorant about ecology. An arboricultural approach should incorporate the awareness that there are associations and interactions between trees and other organisms. (Some of those interactions are determined by the trees, as they exude material through their roots, right?)

 

I understand that a forest ecologist's approach might observe the dynamics of all these interactions and look at the tree as a small part of an immense tree species specific ecosystems, and be less interventional. sometimes this approach fits the objectives of tree owners, but many times those owners want objectives to be met that call for a reasonable level of intervention.

 

Even if two plants can go on co-existing and even sharing some ectomycorrhizal symbionts for many more years to come, if one plant (say, an oak) is bound to be damaged by another plant (say, a tilia), and that damage might interfere with the owner's value in or enjoyment of that plant, then an arborist can perform treatments to reduce the conflict. This may not be a forest ecologist's preference, but most tree owners that I work for are in urban sites, and prefer their chosen plants' performance optimized.

 

I believe this can be done responsibly if the arborist is paying attention to the ecosystem: which does not require that her work is dominated by the forest ecological approach. There are other factors at play, outside of forest ecology. See the difference? Both approaches seem valid. I'm not saying that you are wrong.

 

-What would you do with roots of different trees below the forest floor, if you found them in close contact by "embrasing", rubbing, crossing, girdling or even merging, together forming a complex root system connecting trees standing together at close range ? Prune them or cut them off, because it is "good arborist practice" as well ?

 

Hmm that seems like a "digging" question in more ways than one.

 

But I will reply, because I am a nice guy: Only where diseases such as oak wilt can be transmitted might that pruning be reasonable. Under the ground, roots are left free to interact without intervention, hence as said before, 83.6.4 Roots that cross other roots outside the buttress area should be retained. That clause seems to address your concern. Any others?

[Fungus]

1. Yes, the 3 downrights are ill-developed compared to the circling portion that constrains aka girdles the oak buttress. They could develop better if conditions along the footpath improved by 'fixing" in hama's term the aeration and biological and other conditions. i would suggest fixing the soil might allow the 3 downrights to make up for some of the loss, and new roots can form elsewhere too. If the timing is righ--the end of the growing season, like now, that will help, but not having seen it in person hinders further comment or judgment.

2. today's loving embrace can be tomorrow's strangulation.

3. I always assume spores of decay fungi are swirling around

4. so I try to minimize wounding, and slant cuts for minimal exposure. Applying a sealant to minimize infection might be considered as well. Also, root tissue is generally more resistant to infection than branch or stem.

5. a forest ecologist's approach might observe the dynamics of all these interactions and look at the tree as a small part of an immense tree species specific ecosystems, and be less interventional. sometimes this approach fits the objectives of tree owners, but many times those owners want objectives to be met that call for a reasonable level of intervention. Even if two plants can go on co-existing and even sharing some ectomycorrhizal symbionts for many more years to come, if one plant (say, an oak) is bound to be damaged by another plant (say, a tilia), and that damage might interfere with the owner's value in or enjoyment of that plant, then an arborist can perform treatments to reduce the conflict. This may not be a forest ecologist's preference, but most tree owners that I work for are in urban sites, and prefer their chosen plants' performance optimized.

6. Any others?

 

Guy,

1. This will never happen as these trees are part of an extensively managed woodland. And I would prefer putting up a sign (not to the trees of course ) explaining the public what the phenomenon is all about and why it should be left in peace.

2. Sure, but in this case this is an aspect of the ecology of a woodland, so the outcome of the competition will be respected, which - of course - could be different in an urban situation with a private owner.

And I think your worst case scenario will not happen and the groom and his much younger bride will be married happily ever after, or the oak will adopt the lime as his son, sharing water with him and nutrients coming from ectomycorrhizal symbionts associated with both tree species.

Trees are not always at war or in territorial conflict with one another, they out of mutual interest often invest in co-existence as is seen in many types of mixed forests without a single tree species dominating all the others.

3. Which is obvious as part of their reproductive strategies, but under these circumstances, the air will be "filled" with an abundance of airborne spores, which' presence will probably be heightened by a factor 1.000+ compared to "normal" circumstances.

4. In my experience, the root tissue and/or dead wood of Tilia species is not very resistant to infections with spores or rhizomorphs of its main attackers, a single hit of a buttock or superficial root by a lawn mower will sometimes do the "trick". Besides, regeneration of or compensation for a cut mayor root takes too long for the tree to go without infection of the wound and survive on the long run, as sealants in this situation will not be applied.

Superficially above and underground present rhizomorphs of necrotrophic parasitic Armillaria species can detect regrowth of damaged roots and buttraces by the growth hormones secreted by the tree from a distance of up to one metre and "grow", i.e. stretch towards the wound in a straight line with a speed of up to one metre a year while using dead wood (wood chips) as temporary food sources and stepping stones. In a research project I witnessed in the national forests of Bavaria, while I was monitoring plots in other forests with German collaegues, all damaged spruce roots in the one meter wide and 50+ centimetres deep tyre traces or "furrows" left behind by wood harvesting machines were colonized by rhizomorphs coming from aside within two years.

5. In my forest ecological view, woodlands and forests always should be "managed" according to the dynamics of tree species specific ecosytems. And the management of urban trees can profit much more from the knowledge of forest ecology then is the case in today's common arboricultural practice.

6. No, so let's leave it at that and return to the original subject.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Fungus

[Fungus]

"grafting will not happen as both tree species are mutually incompatible for merging cambium or bark because of mayor genetic differences"

also, most girdling roots of the same tree seldom graft to their trunks, due to tissue incompatibility.

 

What I meant to say is, that only branches or roots of genetically identical trees, i.e. coming from the same "father and mother", will graft, as can be seen in these photo's of merged branch bridges (see second half of the post), for which phenomenon this explanation (first half of the same post) is suggested.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Fungus

[treeseer]

Thanks Gerrit for your reasoned response

1. This will never happen as these trees are part of an extensively managed woodland. And I would prefer putting up a sign (not to the trees of course ) explaining the public what the phenomenon is all about and why it should be left in peace.

 

Depending on the woodland manager's objective, that could be done. Or, the intervention could be done and interpreted with a sign.

I agree signs on trees can be harmful.

 

2. Sure, but in this case this is an aspect of the ecology of a woodland, so the outcome of the competition will be respected, which - of course - could be different in an urban situation with a private owner.

 

Yes, thanks.

 

"And I think your worst case scenario will not happen and the groom and his much younger bride will be married happily ever after,

 

But if they do not graft, or "consummate" that marriage, then it may not be all that happy...but structurally speaking, intertwined plants can be mutually supportive, yes. in another example, if the tilia girdles and deforms the oak, and subsequently dies, that could be bad for the oak.

 

" or the oak will adopt the lime as his son, sharing water with him and nutrients coming from ectomycorrhizal symbionts associated with both tree species.

Trees are not always at war or in territorial conflict with one another, they out of mutual interest often invest in co-existence as is seen in many types of mixed forests without a single tree species dominating all the others."

 

Yes, even in the city we can persuade owners to invest in facilitating coexistence between plants that may compete in one sense, and encourage tolerance and appreciation of these natural arrangements.

 

3. Which is obvious as part of their reproductive strategies, but under these circumstances, the air will be "filled" with an abundance of airborne spores, which' presence will probably be heightened by a factor 1.000+ compared to "normal" circumstances.

 

If that is the natural state that the manager wants, fine. If less decay is desired, perhaps the conks could be harvested before opening? Or could that intervention prompt panic fruiting?

 

4. In my experience, the root tissue and/or dead wood of Tilia species is not very resistant to infections with spores or rhizomorphs of its main attackers, a single hit of a buttock or superficial root by a lawn mower will sometimes do the "trick". Besides, regeneration of or compensation for a cut mayor root takes too long for the tree to go without infection of the wound and survive on the long run, as sealants in this situation will not be applied.

Superficially above and underground present rhizomorphs of necrotrophic parasitic Armillaria species can detect regrowth of damaged roots and buttraces by the growth hormones secreted by the tree from a distance of up to one metre and "grow", i.e. stretch towards the wound in a straight line with a speed of up to one metre a year while using dead wood (wood chips) as temporary food sources and stepping stones. In a research project I witnessed in the national forests of Bavaria, while I was monitoring plots in other forests with German collaegues, all damaged spruce roots in the one meter wide and 50+ centimetres deep tyre traces or "furrows" left behind by wood harvesting machines were colonized by rhizomorphs coming from aside within two years.

 

All true, though furrows are such extreme disturbance, that colonization may be a very extreme example.

Your English is excellent, but language is funny--'buttock" also refers to that part of the body which is sat upon, so the image of a root damaged by a buttock is humorous.

Tilia is underused in my region, but I do know it to be a weak compartmentalizer. One vicarious experience I had with Tilia was in the attached, from ISA. It may show that, even if I occasionally see a girdling root where a dead branch lays, I can also see where human intervention can be quite damaging! On the other hand, the proper use of standards, and the sharing of examples such as the use of rattan to simulate forest shade, can make for tree-friendly intervention.

 

This also relates to the original post (!) in that the removal of sprouts before their time is a bad thing.

 

5. In my forest ecological view, woodlands and forests always should be "managed" according to the dynamics of tree species specific ecosytems. And the management of urban trees can profit much more from the knowledge of forest ecology then is the case in today's common arboricultural practice.

 

Yes, very much so. Forest ecology and arboriculture do overlap a great deal, but Arboriculture can also benefit from more knowledge of meteorological phenomena, and aspects of human activity, and other influences. So while there is overlap between forest ecology and arboriculture, not all of one subject coincides with or even influences the other. But given evolution, forest ecology is very important to be informed on, and apply where practical.

 

I am keen to learn more about your view of the dynamics of tree species specific ecosytems. I still have questions about how specific they are, and whether the specificity that is observed in forest ecosystems is deterministic; do urban trees require the same associations in the same pattern to function well, given their non-forest environment?

 

I can see the benefit of mimicking nature to the utmost practical extent, and look forward to learning more about ways to do more of this over time, in other threads.

 

6. No, so let's leave it at that and return to the original subject.

 

Thank you for acknowledging that the proposed standard addresses that concern. Even if it was not entirely serious, a reductio ad absurdum of sorts, it is still important for standards to apply to all situations.

As for returning to the original subject, when Mr. Loggit re-pollards that willow, I hope we do!

Dendro 9 Tearing Tilia.pdf

[Fungus]

1. But if they do not graft, or "consummate" that marriage, then it may not be all that happy...but structurally speaking, intertwined plants can be mutually supportive, yes. in another example, if the tilia girdles and deforms the oak, and subsequently dies, that could be bad for the oak.

2. If less decay is desired, perhaps the conks could be harvested before opening? Or could that intervention prompt panic fruiting?

3. a single hit of a buttock ... regrowth of damaged roots and buttraces...

but language is funny-- ""buttock" also refers to that part of the body which is sat upon ... humerous

4. All true, though furrows are such extreme disturbance, that colonization may be a very extreme example.

5. the use of rattan to simulate forest shade

6. knowledge of meteorological phenomena, and aspects of human activity ... view of the dynamics of tree species specific ecosytems.

7. do urban trees require the same associations in the same pattern to function well, given their non-forest environment?

 

1. "Consummating" the marriage would mean they only temporarely made a "merging" connection called intercourse , if they would graft, it would be like a pathological "symbiotic" and smothering relationship among human partners called collusion. And I don't think the lime root has the strength to compete with the oak trunk to such an extent, that it will damage or kill the oak.

2. Yes, it would and as a reaction it would intensivy the decomposition of the wood by the mycelium to short or long term compensate for the loss of the annual or perennial reproductive organs, see : warning and panic fruiting of macrofungi.

3. Not one, but two mistakes, both "buttocks" and "buttraces" should - of course - have been buttresses , but how would the Dutch term "wortelaanzetten" of "wortelhalzen" have been understood and interpreted ?

4. The extreme circumstances are not that much different from the situation in undisturbed soils, as is documented in the first photo and the following text, and in "das grosse Waldsterben" of spruce forests in the border region of German and Czech Bavaria. And the follow up of the Bavarian research showed, that by using this "harvesting" method of about half of the spruces, within five years all still standing spruces were infected and partially killed by Armillaria ostoyae.

5. In The Netherlands, for urban trees (beech, lime) we prefer to use jute or burlap.

6. All this knowledge (climate change, meteorology, air and water pollution, human caused compaction of soil and damage to trees, etc.) is included in the concept of the dynamics of tree species specific ecosystems, f.i. see the synopsis of my article in Der Tintling.

7. No, they don't, but mimicking their natural habitats and tree species specific ecosystems as much as possible will certainly not harm them.

[treeseer]

Thanks again; we are getting very close now.

 

1. ...I don't think the lime root has the strength to compete with the oak trunk to such an extent, that it will damage or kill the oak.

 

Probably not, it appears from here.

 

2. (removing conks) would intensivy the decomposition of the wood by the mycelium to short or long term compensate for the loss of the annual or perennial reproductive organs,

 

Clients who are concerned about spores sometimes tie bags around them. If the bags do not kill the conk then this seems ok.

 

3. ... how would the Dutch term "wortelaanzetten" of "wortelhalzen" have been understood and interpreted ?

 

as "stops warts"

 

5. In The Netherlands, for urban trees (beech, lime) we prefer to use jute or burlap.

 

Same concept; makes sense.

 

7. ... mimicking their natural habitats and tree species specific ecosystems as much as possible will certainly not harm them.

 

Totally, dude.

That was not hard at all! I'll check those references and query per need.

 

That was not hard at all!