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Re-pollard of ancient Willow


Loggit
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I agree; pics 1 and 2 show no intervention would be reasonable.

 

The facts portrayed illustrate that pruning the Tilia root just past the 3rd downright lateral (center of image) would remove the most severe girdling on the oak, while conserving the Tilia, and training it to develop compatibly with the oak. Keeping soil off that area would discourage infection, and regirdling.

 

Goodness no, an arborist would look for reasonable compromise, not kill-or-live scenarios. :001_smile: Pruning the main root at the right place and time, with other treatments, would of course not kill the little thing. Such a hasty, fatalistic viewpoint does not seem very relevant to arboriculture.

 

Attached is a peer-reviewed chapter on this general issue (from what hama calls a "hardcore ISA man"), just 3 years old. Below is a portion of a proposed standard for managing these situations--note "shall" and "should". Arboricultural thoughts on either would of course be most welcome.

 

83.6 Root pruning: girdling roots

 

83.6.1 Roots that contact the trunk or a buttress root should be considered for pruning

 

83.6.2 Girdling roots should be visible on all sides before pruning is planned

 

83.6.3 If a root is thicker than 10% of the trunk diameter and girdles less than 10% of the trunk, retention should be considered

 

83.6.4 Roots that cross other roots outside the buttress area should be retained.

 

83.6.5 Species ability to graft root tissue to stem tissue shall be considered

 

83.6.6 Exposure and pruning in spring and early summer should be limited to protected areas such as the north side of the trunk

 

83.6.7 Pruning cuts should be made back to non-girdling lateral roots where possible

 

83.6.8 Damage to the trunk and buttress roots shall be avoided

 

83.6.9 If more than one large girdling root is present, pruning in stages should be considered.

 

83.6.11 Excavated soil and fine roots should be incorporated into the outer rootzone as soil amendments

 

Yes a good piece of work, I would ask a few questions though, I didnt see any mention of Fig 3 being a standard root graft common in root morphology as apposed to a SCR? root morphology shows many such grafts, perfectly well connected and functional. there is a fine line between a girdling root and a forming root bridge with its complex mechanical shear killing properties.

 

How do you propose to add as an update to this 3 year old article allowances for true root morphology to be left unmolested or are you happy to propose all crossing (potentialy in your view) and strangling roots?

 

Would be worthwhile taking a look at the root morphologies of Ash and lime for this as they are the true kings of the weld, beech also.

 

Stay close to the root collar would be my advice Guy, for figure three is showing a lack of understanding IMO

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I didnt see any mention of Fig 3 being a standard root graft common in root morphology as apposed to a SCR?
Tony I wonder if we are talking about the same thing. Where is that tilia root grafted to that quercus buttress?
there is a fine line between a girdling root and a forming root bridge with its complex mechanical shear killing properties.
If that means increasing stability, I agree. that fine line is negotiated by guidelines and other common sense, hopefully.

 

How do you propose to add as an update to this 3 year old article allowances for true root morphology to be left unmolested or are you happy to propose all crossing (potentially in your view) and strangling roots?
1. Had not planned on an updated quite yet. 2. It is not molestation; i ain't no pedophile. :sneaky2: 3. Being prudent by following these guidelines:

83.6.3 If a root is thicker than 10% of the trunk diameter and girdles less than 10% of the trunk, retention should be considered

83.6.4 Roots that cross other roots outside the buttress area should be retained.

83.6.5 Species ability to graft root tissue to stem tissue shall be considered

83.6.6 Exposure and pruning in spring and early summer should be limited to protected areas such as the north side of the trunk

83.6.7 Pruning cuts should be made back to non-girdling lateral roots where possible

83.6.8 Damage to the trunk and buttress roots shall be avoided

Don't these work to avoid your concerns?

Would be worthwhile taking a look at the root morphologies of Ash and lime for this as they are the true kings of the weld, beech also.
Yes when these are older and welded, yes. When younger, maybe best to prune for better structure, like branches

 

Stay close to the root collar would be my advice Guy, for figure three is showing a lack of understanding IMO

Please clarify; enlighten me. :heeeelllllooooo:

59765dfc169c2_tiliahuggingoak.jpg.5df2f1914f65955b9129ab4fee7c0ddc.jpg

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Tony I wonder if we are talking about the same thing. Where is that tilia root grafted to that quercus buttress? If that means increasing stability, I agree. that fine line is negotiated by guidelines and other common sense, hopefully.

 

1. Had not planned on an updated quite yet. 2. It is not molestation; i ain't no pedophile. :sneaky2: 3. Being prudent by following these guidelines:

83.6.3 If a root is thicker than 10% of the trunk diameter and girdles less than 10% of the trunk, retention should be considered

83.6.4 Roots that cross other roots outside the buttress area should be retained.

83.6.5 Species ability to graft root tissue to stem tissue shall be considered

83.6.6 Exposure and pruning in spring and early summer should be limited to protected areas such as the north side of the trunk

83.6.7 Pruning cuts should be made back to non-girdling lateral roots where possible

83.6.8 Damage to the trunk and buttress roots shall be avoided

Don't these work to avoid your concerns?

Yes when these are older and welded, yes. When younger, maybe best to prune for better structure, like branchesPlease clarify; enlighten me. :heeeelllllooooo:

 

no need for the gun smiley my friend:lol:

 

And there is that "hardcore ISA man" train of thought (highlighted)

 

You have a viewpoint that is well established in certain camps, yes I am talking under the wire, like you do, things are moving on. Some of us accept the graft be that in branches or in roots as part and parcel of tree morphology. That is not reflected in ether the GR article or your above highlighted comment.

 

My comments applied ONLY to your article, NOT to the lime root issue, which you have rightly diagnosed and offered an option for remedial work.:thumbup1:

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haha when i chose the smiley i only saw the flags not the gun--not my intent! nothing here to blow brains out over but cannot edit; over 10 minutes; o well.

 

I totally accept the graft/weld in limbs and in fact force them through scraping and bolting. but there are times limbs or roots rubbing are good and times when they are unlikely to be good. i think that understanding could be covered more in the article--i'll let you take on that rewrite. It is in the standard--how would you improve that? in my area pinus taeda dependably graft but quercus and acer and magnolia not hardly at all; attached. don't shred that one please; it was an early effort.

 

what established viewpoint are you talking bout? Pruning SGRs (not SCRs) is grrrradually catching on but not routine by any means ime. many or most usa or aus tree guys seem to pay little mind to that part of the tree, nor even use a chisel.

 

so loggit, is that a branch or a root laying there?

Dendro 1 Grandiflora.pdf

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The facts portrayed illustrate that pruning the Tilia root just past the 3rd downright lateral (center of image) would remove the most severe girdling on the oak, while conserving the Tilia, and training it to develop compatibly with the oak. Keeping soil off that area would discourage infection, and regirdling.

Goodness no, an arborist would look for reasonable compromise, not kill-or-live scenarios. Pruning the main root at the right place and time, with other treatments, would of course not kill the little thing. Such a hasty, fatalistic viewpoint does not seem very relevant to arboriculture.

 

In case you overlooked certain aspects of my information :

 

- I just asked how you would solve a "problem", I didn't suggest, that pruning the root or cutting it off was my "hasty, fatalistic viewpoint" on whatever solution suggested.

- both trees are standing close to a compacted dirt path without possibilities to send out roots to collect water at that side, even though the Tilia tried to penetrate the soil from the trunk base with three ill-developed roots.

- the lime root is not strangling or girdling, it just touches on and around or "embraces" the base of the oak at and above ground level.

- grafting will not happen as both tree species are mutually incompatible for merging cambium and bark (see : examples of non-merging trees), because of major genetic differences.

- pruning the root of the lime would implicate cutting it off from its mayor water supply basin, a loss which can not be restored on the short run, if it can even be compensated for at all and removing soil doesn't prevent this type of "girdling" roots to (re)develop, because they (for the greater part) stay above ground without penetrating the soil.

- besides, the surrounding woodland is invested with M. giganteus, A. ostoyae, G. australe and K. deusta, so what are the chances, the wound will not be infected with spores or rhizomorphs from close by, even though the soil is removed ?

 

So "goodness no", I beg for your arborist compassion.

Pruning the "girdling" root will on the long run kill "the little thing", which is not threating the oak by just tapping rain water running down from its stem, a natural phenomenon, which is seen quite often in woodlands and forests.

And I don't see how your "option" fits in a forest ecological approach to trees being very complicated organisms interacting with one another and with thousands of other organisms, which are part of the dynamics of their tree species specific ecosystems.

So my non-arborist advice would be, leave them in peace, they can go on co-existing and even sharing some ectomycorrhizal symbionts for many more years to come without interventions by tree managers.

 

And a final question. What would you do with roots of different trees below the forest floor, if you found them in close contact by "embrasing", rubbing, crossing, girdling or even merging, together forming a complex root system connecting trees standing together at close range ? Prune them or cut them off, because it is "good arborist practice" as well ?

Edited by Fungus
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FFS, Gerrit and Tony! Stop childishly bullying the poor yank, he does his best doesn't he? He might be less informed or in need of having his views altered slightly, but this is usually best achieved gently in my experience. I know neither of you are very likely to admit you're wrong (except to each other, and no I'm not suggesting you are, most of this is going way over my head) but let the guy have a break lads, he saw what he thought was an issue and suggested a solution. So perhaps he needs glasses there's no need to mock him for that fact though is there?

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FFS, Gerrit and Tony! Stop childishly bullying the poor yank, he does his best doesn't he? He might be less informed or in need of having his views altered slightly, but this is usually best achieved gently in my experience. I know neither of you are very likely to admit you're wrong (except to each other, and no I'm not suggesting you are, most of this is going way over my head) but let the guy have a break lads, he saw what he thought was an issue and suggested a solution. So perhaps he needs glasses there's no need to mock him for that fact though is there?

 

There is nothing wrong with a little humour and rib tickling, I get stick left right and centre when I am being a silly billy.

 

What appears to go un noticed is that there are a great many little digs from "the Yank" and we are just returning the compliment, me in my english way and Gerrit in his dutch way.

 

if he didnt want to play he wouldnt have stuck his head above the parapet!:lol:

 

Treeseer has something to say, and believe it or not ive been reading what he puts out, and am listening, but being as childish as i am, i cannot willnot resist the urge to return fire!:biggrin:

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