Arb or not to arb?

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

Hi Andy, thank you for your post and it is my intention to be here for the 'long haul', so to speak, AND thank you also to all forum members for making me feel so welcomed (hope that's not famous last words).

I acknowledge times are very difficult in the industry at the moment, this has impacted on the AA too with a colleague being made redundant AND no maternity cover for another (and why shouldn't it as we're innit together), and its aboslutely right to scrutinise every business outgoing to ensure it represents value for money (that's a very individual decision for all of us as circumstances are so different).

In terms of what benefits will AAAC status bring, and thank you for the question, several...potentially.

Firstly, and most importantly IMO, it would contribute towards the 'critical mass' I referred to in an earlier posting which = 'a bigger voice' and more resources.

Also, you can view it as a company health check, which whilst not essential has to be viewed as an investment in ensuring you are operating in a manner compliant with regulations and consistent with industry good (best?) practice. This may also serve to protect your interest, as an employer, in the (hopefully unlikley) event of an incident / accident and investigation by HSE.

Some ACs also report it's become easier to attract/retain staff as an AC (but IMO this is probbaly more to do with being a good employer).

The other thing is access to certain tree work contracts as many, and 'anecdotally' an increasing number, express a preference for ACs OR award an additional score to ACs (if they use that mechanism in procurement). This is particularly the case since HSE have been running their 'Engaging Arb Contractors' SHADs (sorry, Safety and Health Awareness Days).

It can secure further discounts on insurance premiums, some ACs by as much as 5% of premium.

It now involves a dual award with CHAS, on full approval, as we carry the ability so to do thereby avoiding duplication to you, the contractor.

Also many firms feel a sense of achievement and kudos and wear their badge with pride, so to speak, and it is probably from this that the term 'elitism' came in which isn't the case at all. Some conctractors see benefit in AC status, some don't, some clients request it, some don't, BUT (hopefully) we all work to the same standards day-in, day-out...nothing elitist about that, we're innit together (as they say).

I'm sure there are other potential benefits that I haven't mentioned but one thing almost all, and yes I really do mean the vast majority and regardless of whtehr they pass or fail, say is that it's been a really useful exercise and they've seen great benefit in the process. Also we're not out to criticise in any way shape or form, 'yes' if something isn't right we'll flag it up, explain why (actually I usually get the named manager to do this whihc works really well, kind of a self-checking process AND works extremely well when scrutinising work quality) AND then offer advice and guidance on how to address it, i.e. we don't leaving them in the lurch and floundering.

Andy, sorry I have to dash at this point as I have a 4pm training session with my sons and their junior footie team, great fun, even tho I do always get a good kicking.

PLEASE respond if you have further questions or I haven't addressed anything adequately...thank you!

Paul

[Danavan]

It's an uphill struggle all the way BUT I firmly believe that, in the absence of imposed regulation from central government (which'll never happen IMO), 'self-regulation' is the only option to move the industry forward significantly and at this moment in time the only real vehicle to do so is the AC scheme (but then I would say that.....COZ I firmly believe in it BUT we don't have the 'critical mass' currently!)

Cheers all..

Paul

 

Hi Paul, Please keep the info coming in on the post the points made are usefull ammo next time I get the 'why are we doing this?'

I am lead to belive that the German gov have or did have some envolvment in the regulation of arb wrk some yrs ago but not sure if they still do.

What in your opinion is the reason for lack the UK gov to get involved in a roll like Germany?

From people I have spoken to who have worked over their yrs ago & presantly I am told the standard of wrk is very high & they don't seem to have many probs with cowboy loppers!

I belive most who use this site are all on the same side & want to see a way fwd in our struggle to care for trees & increace our knollage of them along with passing it on to our clients.

Thanks Paul

[skyhuck]

I too am very pleased to have a Representative of the AA on here, thanks for taking the time.

 

I'm not the AA's biggest fan (but them I'm a bit anti authority and rules)

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

Its great to have an "official" on here to discuss this with, long overdue and very welcomed, long may it continue and definatley no apologies needed for over contributing to threads!

 

I personaly feel that wether we agree or dissagree with what the arb association is doing or not doing for "us" is taking a shallow view of the value gained from any grade of membership to the AA, be that AAAC or just being a registered paying member/associate.

 

The fact is with membership of the AA (any grade) you are contributing to the cause and connecting to a force that represents arboriculture in the U.K

 

The more of us "financialy involved" the greater the force.

 

Is it really a question of wether we can afford to be members, or one of wether we can afford NOT to be?

 

I couldnt pay my subs last year, and havent renewed yet but when i do I will pay two years worth because wether I agree or dissagree with what is or is not being done i know my contribution and membership helps progress and that is all I want from the AA.

 

I would like to see a more unified arboricultural body, one that as Tony Sorensen suggested (a shared view?), incorporates ALL interested parties by joining the woodland trust, the forestry commision and the AA we would see a force to be recconed with, a mighty force capable of great things and representing a very large, tree interested party. Representing ALL tree realated interests, from the public who enjoy walks in the ancient woods to researchers looking to fund a project.

 

It is true that AAAC status does NOT garauntee a quality job, and that does need changing, how i dont know, if you took poor work as a bench mark for removal some of the biggest names/financial inputs would be lost! Random spot checks? been working for AA aproved firms for 10 years, NEVER have I been subjected to a random check by the AA, you need to stop claiming them or activley carry them out, its a threat only if it happens!

 

On the other hand if random checks where a real threat how many would remain AAAC for very long?

 

The AA have a tough job, and I respect what it is they are trying to do, it has to be the toughest role and we should all be supporting that role in anyway we can. pay your subs pay your dues, the AA represent us all for better or worse and its a job you or I couldnt do any better!

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

Danavan, thanks for the post.

Rapid response as I’m on ‘curry cooking’ duties tonight...YUK!

 

Basically I don’t believe the arb industry will ever become regulated by central government as:

1. We’re not high enough on the political agenda and they’ve more than enough stuff currently to keep them occupied.

2. Until such time as we either have more significant injuries / accidents, even tho our record’s not that great if you acknowledge HSE figures (I don’t as they’re contaminated with none professional accidents),and/or damage amenity trees on a regular basis then we’ll stay below their radar.

3. We’re a relatively small industry with a ‘little’ voice at government level (hence my call to pull together).

4. We’re already directly (PUWER Reg. 9 – chainsaw certs. competence = compulsory (in theory, who checks?)) and indirectly (HASWA, MHSWA, LOLER, W@H, FA, RIDDOR, COSHH etc. etc.) regulated anyway so why do we need anymore.

5. Unlike ‘Gas Safe’ (formerly CORGI), a frequent comparison, we don’t deal with a highly explosive substance inside (almost) every domestic, and commercial, property in the country.

6. Can’t think of this one at the moment but there’s probably more than enough above not to regulate us.

 

I agree entirely, everyone subscribing here and taking the time to read the posts are working to a common goal, good quality tree care = good quality trees...simple as that really!

 

Gotta dash I’m afraid mi onions are burnin!

Cheers n enjoy rest of weekend.

Paul

 

 

Skyhuck, thanks for the comment and you’re more than welcomed (I should be thanking you for reading my ‘over long’ posts....good for insomnia!)

 

I think it’s great that you’ve taken the time to post regardless of whether you support the AA or not, its really important we hear your views, and criticisms, so hopefully we can answer you. Whether you change your mind about us is entirely your choice and that I fully respect.

 

Cheers again....sh*t onions now charred....”Hamadryad’ can I come back to you tomorrow....v sorry!

Paul

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

Cheers again....sh*t onions now charred....”Hamadryad’ can I come back to you tomorrow....v sorry!

Paul

 

No worries, and you really dont need to keep apologising, were not that uptight or thin skinned! well maybe some are! lol:001_rolleyes:

 

Right I too must do some cooking and also some sulking as i was the only one left out in the replies!

 

Oh i feel all scummy and neglected!

[john dawson]

hi chaps, i tryed posting a few days ago, but me poota went la-la and i lost the whole thing!!

 

anyhoos, having worked for numerous employers, all either aa, isa or not, i can say the system is very easily abusable. including aa who wont supply kit/ppe, isa who say do it like this and then next job is fell a tpo tree etc etc.........

 

peoples attitudes need to change, youve made the effort to be a quality member of society, but you need to keep it up, its no good putting it at the bottom of the "filing" pile!!

 

youv paid your membership to be part of the wider industry, and an organisation that is trying to improve things. but it dont stop there!

 

we all need help sometimes, its no good siting and moaning, its up to YOU to change it.

[Danavan]

youv paid your membership to be part of the wider industry, and an organisation that is trying to improve things. but it dont stop there!

 

we all need help sometimes, its no good siting and moaning, its up to YOU to change it.

 

Wise words & hope we all take action together as well as indiviualy to futher better our profesion.

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

Dear 'Hamadryad', thanks for the post.

 

Oooh, an (AA) “official” eh?...hopefully not too much so, but thanks for the welcome...sorry it took me so long to get here (there I go again!)

 

I wholly agree, it’s about recognition both individually, to the ‘member’ or AAAC, AND collectively with the ‘critical mass’ in terms of industry representation which gives us a much ‘BIGGER’ voice, and more resources to get things done for the betterment of all.

 

In terms of paying ‘subs’ this can be done now from as little as £52 a year (now I sound like a salesman eh?...’honist John!’), unfortunately this doesn’t give you access to ALL member benefits BUT it does make you a member.

 

We do indeed endeavour to achieve ‘progress’ for members and the industry but to date this has been at a fairly slow, albeit steady, pace given the limited resources (principally time and money) we have available....there is so much yet to be done.

 

John Flannigan (North Somerset DC) has been trying for some time to get the government to recognise the need for a ‘Tree Commission’, whether this is a ‘rebirth’ of the FC or a completely separate ‘new’ body (very unlikely IMO) doesn’t really matter, it’s all about raising the profile and funding for research on amenity trees. Obviously the AA is fairly well recognised in the ‘tree industry’ and is well positioned to assist with / input to this project but again it all about resources (‘the drum’ sounds again).

 

We do not, and, as far as I’m aware, never have undertaken ‘random spot checks’ of ACs to ensure compliance etc. and I apologies (!) if you’ve been given that impression. Certain people / AC assessors strongly advocate this as a means of ‘controlling’ compliance and quality BUT, again, we don’t have the resources available so to do. I’m also not wholly convinced, in practice, these would be as effective as they first sound (although I do acknowledge the sound good and fairly obvious).

Perhaps if clients brought their trees to a ‘tree surgery factory’ so when we arrived at their (the depot/factory) we would be guaranteed to see them working it could work. However the reality is it’s very difficult to achieve a ‘random, unannounced spot check’ unless you just happen to come across an AC on your travels. At the current time we are pursuing ‘self-auditing’ (I know that has its critics, and I understand why, but it’s better than nothing and most ACs really embrace it as they want their company to consistently perform well.) Also LA Tree Officers are very well placed to perform this role and we are in discussions with NATO (National Assoc. of Tree Officers) regarding protocols to achieve this.

To conclude on this point (from my side), if we did implement it I’m convinced very few, if any, ACs would resign. Those who would do so probably already have when we implemented the reassessment programme in 2001, repeated from 2006....and ‘yes’ some’ did drop out and still do (thankfully tho each year more come on board so numbers are gradually increasing.)

 

“The AA have a tough job, and I respect what it is they are trying to do, it has to be the toughest role and we should all be supporting that role in anyway we can. pay your subs pay your dues, the AA represent us all for better or worse and its a job you or I couldnt do any better!”

 

Thank you for this, and I hope your ‘call’ has great effect, but I think (KNOW!) the AA still has much work to do to better engage with the industry representing ‘your’ interest and views AND winning your trust and support....again tho thanks for engaging with me and giving me the opportunity to present the AAs views.

 

Thanks all.

Paul

[Danavan]

The fact is with membership of the AA (any grade) you are contributing to the cause and connecting to a force that represents arboriculture in the U.K

The more of us "financialy involved" the greater the force.

It is true that AAAC status does NOT garauntee a quality job, and that does need changing, how i dont know, if you took poor work as a bench mark for removal some of the biggest names/financial inputs would be lost! Random spot checks? been working for AA aproved firms for 10 years, NEVER have I been subjected to a random check by the AA, you need to stop claiming them or activley carry them out, its a threat only if it happens!

 

On the other hand if random checks where a real threat how many would remain AAAC for very long?

 

The AA have a tough job, and I respect what it is they are trying to do, it has to be the toughest role and we should all be supporting that role in anyway we can. pay your subs pay your dues, the AA represent us all for better or worse and its a job you or I couldnt do any better!

 

As with the isa for example, the acreditation of individuals makes alot of sence to me 'subi arb talking by the way' to keep a contiuaty of wrk standards at a high level. As pointed out in a post befor by someone 'ta' the AA acreditaion is as good as seen befor staff turn around, hence the re evaluation of said co's. a few yrs later. I understand the lack of resorses for random spot checks on companys & think we all have a responcibilaty to keep an eye out for crap wrk & unsatisfied clients. I do belive the AA should do some spot checks as in a no notice drop in to co's to at the very least make sure the risk assesments ect are all in check;)

In up most of its a job you or I couldn't do better!