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Thesnarlingbadger

2 rope climbing are we sticking to the rules

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It was nothing to do with the AA really, they had disappointingly little influence over the whole debacle which was led by HSE

Yeah sorry I understand the AA didn’t come up with this whole thing but I’m aware they will be the ones watching this thread and not HSE.
I do think it’s a shame that more coins t be done when this all kicked off by them as I have spoken to instructors who also think the whole thing is a joke and others within the authority side of the industry who feel the same way.
If you want to make it safe better training is key. IMO

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The 10 climbers that were working under your supervision, what do your RAMS say they should climb on single or double ropes? or not specified?

I always put in the RA that two lines would make the job more awkward and there for dangerous. But on some of the sites we work I will use two lines to make sure we are sticking to the book. Generally though nobody has a clue and HSE might turn up and see we aren’t swinging chainsaws around and trashing things and be happy.
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I'm a single strap tree climber, get crap about it all the time. But that's the way I was taught to climb in that fashion so I would be a chore if I changed my climbing style. But when I'm teaching people how to tree climb I always tell them always climb with 2 buck straps around the tree. if you climb trees and have some bad habits don't pass them to people but yourself if i cut myself out of a tree okay my mistake my choice . not there choice If they where never taught to tree climb probably. Climb with two straps kids it's a smart choice.

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2 hours ago, Thesnarlingbadger said:


If you want to make it safe better training is key. IMO

I don’t think theres so much wrong with the training, I mean it’s not rocket science. No, the real game changer would be to raise the bar substantially enough in the tests to lower the pass rate to a point that the type who are most likely to kill themselves never get the opportunity. I’d like to know what the general pass rate is at colleges. I’d also like to know what percentage of those have been observed by the trainers and assessors as just not having what it takes.

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All training in this game is just the first step in actually learning the job.

 

I doubt there’s anyone who has started from scratch, done a course and gone straight on to become a commercial competent climber on the Monday morning after the course, so I’m not sure at what level you would put a pass.

 

Once they’ve finished the course it’s up to the individual to develop the skills, through working with and learning from the more experienced.

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I don’t think theres so much wrong with the training, I mean it’s not rocket science. No, the real game changer would be to raise the bar substantially enough in the tests to lower the pass rate to a point that the type who are most likely to kill themselves never get the opportunity. I’d like to know what the general pass rate is at colleges. I’d also like to know what percentage of those have been observed by the trainers and assessors as just not having what it takes.

When I was at merrist wood as a teenager desperate to get in the industry I failed my climbing nptcs and my felling once , I genuinely felt like I was being made an example of and picked on in front of the rest of my tutor group being the youngest , also I was probably one of the only ones with previous experience and bad habits already , I did have a problem with this.... the tutor glen who was an ex marine and rumoured ex SbS took me to one side after he passed me and said out of the whole year only a very small percentage of people here would go on and make it in the industry and in his view I had what it takes , also in his view I needed bringing down a peg or two and have it drummed in to me the correct and safe way of doing things as if I carried on so cock sure I would probably hurt myself... I walked away from that feeling pissed off but 28 years later after never falling or cutting myself out a tree and having done some trees in situations I don't think many could of done , being able to pass this information on to give a good base to any one I have brought on in to the industry I owe the guy , and so do they !!
But I have seen and worked with folk though who in my opinion should have never of been passed ever in the first place... NPTCS have become far to lax.
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When I passed my driving test at 17, I did everything text book for the duration of the examination.
6 hours later I had a car full of mates, radio on full blast, beeping at totty, bombing down the A580 at break neck speed to The Hacienda.

Tell me, who is at fault here, the guy who trained me or the examiner?

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26 minutes ago, 5thelement said:

When I passed my driving test at 17, I did everything text book for the duration of the examination.
6 hours later I had a car full of mates, radio on full blast, beeping at totty, bombing down the A580 at break neck speed to The Hacienda.

Tell me, who is at fault here, the guy who trained me or the examiner?

I would say neither . You made that choice to do that . Just to be clear I did the same . 🙂

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Just a quick one to say, as anticipated, and certainly in the short-medium term (relatively, meaning 5-10 yrs maybe), we are aware, anecdotally, the industry hasn't embraced / engaged with the '2 rope working' (which, AAMOI is one option in achieving the use of a back-up system...but others are available) in the whole. 

 

HSE, as the regulator, have insisted on this, they actually wanted '2 ropes' at all times so other options equating to a backup system is a concession that we pushed for and that's what's written into the industry ICOP and TG1. Simplistically they saw IRATA as setting then benchmark and require us as an industry, collectively, to reach a comparable safe system of working...in their eyes. 

 

I don't climb these days but I do understand the resistance, and the rationale / reasons, I really do, but equally I have seen contractors / climbers who've embraced it and work effectively and efficiently, okay maybe a little slower but arguably a lot safer...arguably.

 

AA TG1 is a priced publication, some claw-back for the funds invested in writing it, and the ICOP, but the associated Safety Guide (AFAG 401 / 401 replacement) which gives some insight is a free download  


A range of tree related help and advice for members of the public as well as tree surgeons.

  

ATB and 1, 2 ..or 7 ropes, keep safe.

Cheers

Paul

 

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