Daily Rate Advice

[GJames]

Hi, please may I ask forum members for some advice?

 

Due to coronavirus I'm currently furloughed and it is quite likely I'm going to be made redundant from my job in the airline industry. I have moderate experience in using a chainsaw in a domestic/small holding setting, I have my own saw and PPE and I've enjoyed helping out around local farms etc just for a bit of firewood. Now however I'm considering moving in this direction on a professional basis. I appreciate I'm right at the bottom in terms of experience so I'd be looking to start working for an established company or local tree surgeon/climber as a ground man and go from there.

 

So here's my question:

Obviously I will need to make an investment to complete CS30 and CS31 (and in due course CS38 and maybe CS39). Assuming I start doing occasional days or fill in when extra hands are needed on a job, what is the industry norm (is there much regional variation?) for daily rate for someone with basic qualifications and little experience? Would this change much if I completed CS30/31 and 38 all in one go to make myself more useful?

 

I would like to make sure the numbers work before I start spending money, and get some ball-park figures to work with.

 

Any advice, thoughts or suggestions gratefully received. Thank you.

[Dbikeguy]

Depends massively on area buddy, where are you based?
I have my own small setup and pay between 100-150 for a decent groundie, who can think for themselves, pre empt what we are doing next and can talk to clients (if i am up a tree the groundie is the one getting talked to)
I got offered some silly rates as a 30,31,38 holder £75 to £100 max with own kit inc climbing gear etc so ended up starting my own gig reasonably quickly.

Finding a decent company who isn’t all about rushing their team through a job, who will teach you as you go and get you climbing if you want to go that way is tough to find but worth hunting for.

Message local tree firms and offer a days brash dragging to make introductions and see how a commercial tree site runs.

[GJames]

Hi,

Many thanks for the reply, I'm grateful for the info and advice.

I'm in Norfolk, so would be available over the East Anglia region. Finding a company or small business who would be prepared to teach as we went along would be ideal so I can build up some experience.

[Dan Maynard]

My opinion 30/31 are a set, then you are useful and should start getting out to work even if the rate isn't what you want. Do them anyway, if you are working around farms and smallholdings it will stand you in good stead.

Having 38 won't make you any more useful/money really and it's not a lot more to do 39. Once you have 38/39 you can be second climber and then maybe get a little more money.

[JackR]

Hi GJames

 

I'm a self employed groundie (with delusions of climbing) with CS30, 31 and 38. I would have taken 39 by now but Covid has gotten in the way. 

 

I have my own PPE, climbing kit and transport. I show up on time with lunch, my own raincoat and generally prepared to do  the job self sufficiently. Basically I follow the advice on here for how to be a good groundie. In return for this I make at the most £120 a day (based in the south east) and I have been offered significantly less. 

 

To give you an idea of costings I calculate that it's cost me about £3,500 to get to this point. As I have nothing better to do today I shall break this all down for you. 

 

=========Training=========

• My Cs30&31 cost a little under a grand I've added on £100 to cover equipment rental and misc costs so £1,100
• My Cs 38 cost about £930 assessed but I had to rent equipment for this as well and travel I think all in it was about £1,200

=========Equipement=========

PPE 

• Trousers cheap class A type 2 were approx £90. N.B. I will probably have to get some Type C's soon (+£150) 
• Helmet with chin strap, visors, ear defenders approx £80 (I actually got a cheap ground helmet to begin with but someone did me an amazing deal on a climbing helmet) 
• Chainsaw boots: I bought a cheap pair of chainsaw boots for about £90 and they're pretty good but I sort of regret not spending more money here.

Climbing kit

• I won't go into the details of what I bought because there is no way I'm opening that can of worms but all the bits and pieces for a BASIC two rope climbing system (we'll also leave that can of worms firmly shut) cost about £600 quid without a harness.
• Harness is about £300. I got very lucky and someone gave me a harness with a year's worth of life left in it for £0. This is because arb people can be amazing sometimes. 

If we add all this up we get a sunk cost estimate of £3,460. 

 

However. It is worth mentioning that you can start working for tree companies for significantly less than this. Basic PPE is essentially all you need to get started. You don't have to have all your tickets straight away and there was a significant gap between me doing my 30+31 and my Cs38. 

 

It is also worth mentioning that spending all the money does not immediately entitle you to a higher day rate. So I would advise taking it slow. Only spend the minimum you need to get to the next step in your tree career. You could probably get away with spending £0 to begin with. 

 

[breffni]

1 hour ago, Dbikeguy said:

Depends massively on area buddy, where are you based?
I have my own small setup and pay between 100-150 for a decent groundie, who can think for themselves, pre empt what we are doing next and can talk to clients (if i am up a tree the groundie is the one getting talked to)
I got offered some silly rates as a 30,31,38 holder £75 to £100 max with own kit inc climbing gear etc so ended up starting my own gig reasonably quickly.

Finding a decent company who isn’t all about rushing their team through a job, who will teach you as you go and get you climbing if you want to go that way is tough to find but worth hunting for.

Message local tree firms and offer a days brash dragging to make introductions and see how a commercial tree site runs.

How much would you expect to get paid for having the tickets you had? Did you have any experience? 

[jfc]

If you have 30/31, work hard and reliable £9-11 per hour is what I would pay you in Scotland. I try to train guys up, let them climb (using a silky saw)when possible, generally teach them stuff and make the job more interesting. This is self employed rate, you have to pay tax and ni from it, and no holiday pay. I have to say I wouldn't be looking to take more guys on a present, as demand for work is quite uncertain, in the medium term. J.

[drinksloe]

Up to urself but I'd say just do ur basic saw tickets and see where that takes u.

More to chainsaw work than ARB, but if u do want to climb the extra time on ground saws will help u when u get up a tree with a saw.

 

Is it the norm now to do 38 and 39 separately??

Surely most of the same stuff in both courses, surely it wouldn't take much to add on cutting a few branches on to 38.

Or is that an excuse by trainers to charge u for same training twice?

[Wonky]

I don’t know when you did your coarse  drinksloe,, but think about the company that trains guys,,, there in for every pound  of cash they can  get out of a guy’s wallet,,, yes they have to go through the coarse in detail,,, but my coarse it was an all in one, ie 8wk intensive coarse, I found out later it was filled with filler stuff.... example just waste time and talk about stuff and site visiting risk assessment stuff ... I could go into detail more... but it’s really not worth it. I got my tickets. But I wish I had more practice from the coarse , and less time wasting..  

As  for cost of courses,  Yes there’s a going rate within reason. But if you can   Rent stuff, sell stuff and make a markup on everything..it all adds up. Then it ant cheap. But you got tickets . and/or  when you work for someone. Sometimes they get a good deal  and sometimes not so much.. but I guess it’s down to the guy with the new tickets, as to weather  and how long he stays or not..

on the other hand if the boss is paying for the courses, its up to him how long he thinks he can drag it out and get his monies worth out of the employee... although the employee really is paying  for it by slightly lower wages..

 

I will add not every company is the same, some are better than others ?

that’s my tuppence worth ?

 

cheers 

 

[Dan Maynard]

.
 
Is it the norm now to do 38 and 39 separately??
Surely most of the same stuff in both courses, surely it wouldn't take much to add on cutting a few branches on to 38.
Or is that an excuse by trainers to charge u for same training twice?

I did 38 over 5 days, 39 is only 2 (both 1 day assessment added on). The 39 was no climbing instruction, just cuts, work positioning and a bit of spiking.

It helped me that I'd done it separately as then I had done enough climbing practice that I could confidently get up the tree and concentrate on the saw.