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Baldbloke

Should a referendum on Scottish independence only include people living in Scotland?

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Hard-to see it from a Scottish perspective from England mark?


I for one say he’s called it spot on. I think you’re bang out of order here. But I like that! The forum would be a boring place if there was not a few cranks posting off the wall mid-90’s references.

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Again, all about your own agenda!
Surely you can see a counter argument, and understand it?


Not my agenda, but the one I’m most comfortable with. I do see the counter argument and the reasons for it, but cannot accept the baggage that needs to go with it. A soft Brexit is the absolute worst possible outcome. Tied to regulatory alignment, tax alignment, Customs Union and having to follow laws made by the ECJ is exactly where the EU wants us to be, so we cannot advantageously compete on a world stage. It would totally kill off the benefits of departing, which is why I’m pleased to hear BJ stating that we won’t be aligned. Canada isn’t, has a deal, so why should we be hamstrung in such a fashion?

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There is no counter-argument to a national referendum where the majority wish to leave the Union. It’s really as simple as that. End of



What? The minority?
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What? The minority?


What are you taking about?

Scotland voted to stay in the union. That makes Scotland apart of the UK. The U.K. voted for Brexit.

Game over. You lost!

Twice it would seem.
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Trouble is Andy, it's the squeaky wheel that gets the oil. 

 

The SNP's squeaking drowns everything else out in Scottish politics.

Edited by Gimlet
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On 21/12/2019 at 11:12, trigger_andy said:

What point am I missing? If you have 100 votes and one person has 45% of those votes and one person has 25% and another 20% and a person with 5% and so on what individual has the majority of votes? I'm going to assume you will argue no one. Where as in a democracy the person with the majority is clearly the person with 45%. 

 

I simply do not agree with your assessment of FPTP and as much as your welcome to it no one really cares. :D Its not gonna change anything. 

I'll tell you the point. You are incorrectly using the word 'majority'. It doesn't mean 'the most of'. It's not an argument, it's a matter of the correct use of words. In the example you put, the correct answer is indeed no-one, not because I would argue it but because it's factually correct. Your rhetoric would be clearer to follow if you don't mix up majority of votes with majority of seats. And FPTP is an analogy that only works for the constituency votes. In parliament government comes from most past the post i.e most of the first past the posts. Positively primitive, in my opinion, as it gives two linked opportunities to alienate large parts of society.

 

Anyway, some people care. When the new scottish parliament had the opportunity to design a system form scratch it introduced a system that is more inclusive. Because enough people cared.

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I'll tell you the point. You are incorrectly using the word 'majority'. It doesn't mean 'the most of'. It's not an argument, it's a matter of the correct use of words. In the example you put, the correct answer is indeed no-one, not because I would argue it but because it's factually correct. Your rhetoric would be clearer to follow if you don't mix up majority of votes with majority of seats. And FPTP is an analogy that only works for the constituency votes. In parliament government comes from most past the post i.e most of the first past the posts. Positively primitive, in my opinion, as it gives two linked opportunities to alienate large parts of society.
 
Anyway, some people care. When the new scottish parliament had the opportunity to design a system form scratch it introduced a system that is more inclusive. Because enough people cared.


And yet that very same Scottish Parliament is claiming a mandate for Indy Ref 2 because of the seats they won through FPTP. They claim that the majority of Scotland wants independence, but the truth is they didn’t actually get anything like 50% of the vote to do so. Their success was purely through FPTP, and didn’t reflect a majority wish for their most pressing aim.

They also ‘designed’ a vote for 16 year olds. Presumably because they envisaged the likelihood of getting their vote. I’m sure if they disallowed the vote to retired voters they really could get a real majority.
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12 hours ago, Baldbloke said:

And yet that very same Scottish Parliament is claiming a mandate for Indy Ref 2 because of the seats they won through FPTP. They claim that the majority of Scotland wants independence, but the truth is they didn’t actually get anything like 50% of the vote to do so. Their success was purely through FPTP, and didn’t reflect a majority wish for their most pressing aim.

They also ‘designed’ a vote for 16 year olds. Presumably because they envisaged the likelihood of getting their vote. I’m sure if they disallowed the vote to retired voters they really could get a real majority.

 

Agreed on the first point. See what a shit  and misleading system it is?

 

I have no view on the second points.

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While the Scottish Government says it’s desperate to either remain in or rejoin the EU, the Scottish export figures don’t actually back up that argument. England is Scotland’s biggest market at 60%, while the EU took 18%. But the biggest Scottish foreign export market is the USA. The figures are from the Scottish Government.

So to suggest that leaving the EU will do untold damage to Scotland is strange when it is Remaining in the E.U. which after our U.K. departure could be Scotland’s most expensive decision.

Remaining in the E.U. after England’s departure would not only involve tariffs trading with England, but also our biggest foreign export market. This when leaving shows it would be beneficial in retaining tariff free trade within the U.K. cheaper trade with the USA, and being included in FTAs around the rest of the world. For Scotland to remain an E.U. member it would involve hefty EU contributions and stifling trade barriers with its biggest markets. All just to show Sturgeons dissatisfaction at Westminster.

 

It has been suggested that the Scottish Government has already been in discussions with the EU over a simplified reentry as a member. Also that the EU appears quite keen because it would be giving the U.K. the finger for leaving.

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