Background to the HSE decision on two rope working

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

1 minute ago, Khriss said:

@AA Teccie (Paul) and @scotspine1 and now I find I am in the same boat with this matter, got to do Demonstration of Safe Tree Works Practises in Rail in three weeks time to our Client....when I get date I will let you know. This is all grist to the mill. K

Interestingly it's a different regulator on the rail network I believe, i.e. ORR as opposed to HSE., but sure they will "sing from the same hymn sheet"  

[BenR]

8 hours ago, scotspine1 said:

 

Cheers,

 

It apparently was video'd, this is from the AA article, see last sentence below, would be good to see some footage to see what the HSE were looking at and what made them conclude SRT/SRWP was rope access and not work positioning because 95% of SRT use nowadays is work positioning. 

 

Arboricultural Association - Background to the HSE decision on two rope working

WWW.TREES.ORG.UK

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A range of tree related help and advice for members of the public as well as tree surgeons.

 

Demonstration day: 10 June 2019

We set up a demonstration day at Stoneleigh Deer Park Golf Club, Coventry, on 10 June. The following were present:

• Simon Richmond, Senior Technical Officer, AA
• Chris Cooper-Abbs, lead author for TG1
• Matt Brooker, author for TG1 and demonstration climber
• Ben Rose, demonstration climber and SRT expert
• Jo Hedger, demonstration climber and world tree climbing champion
• John Trenchard, tree climbing trainer/assessor and representative for Lantra Awards
• Rob Blake, tree climbing trainer/assessor and representative for C&G NPTC

From HSE:

• Andrew Turner
• Stuart Parry
• Paul McGann (WAH specialist)
• David Wooley (HSE Photographer)

David Wooley took video footage and still photos of the demonstrations and of some discussions around the tree climbing demonstrations.

 

 

 

This is the main issue... definitions. 

 

I would argue, as you have, that all rope work is work positioning. By the simple fact that we use ropes to get us into a position to perform work. 

 

Therefore, if conventional DDRT climbing is work positioning and only requires one rope then SRT should be classed as work positioning and only require one rope too. After all, what difference does it make whether the rope moves or not. It is still one rope or two no matter what the technique.

[Mick Dempsey]

9 minutes ago, BenR said:

Hello ladies and gents of Arbtalk.. I'm not going to claim to have read everything in this thread but what I will do is explain my involvement in the process. 

 

I was asked by the AA to attend said meeting to demonstrate SRT climbing techniques on one rope and two ropes, which I did and I had hoped that some sort of middle ground might have been found whereby people were advised to climb on two rope when reasonably practicable and otherwise continue as before. Alas the decision making process is nothing to do with me and we are now looking down the barrel of two ropes at all times. Whilst this isn't always practical I don't think anyone can argue that it will make us a safer industry... 

 

Trying to find some positive out of this: I can only hope that this new legislation helps to make the difference between professionals and people on the ladders with the poly pro rope and pole saw all the more clear. 

 

What would be great is if we could get outselves organised to the stage where as tree workers we need to be accredited to do the work and those that are not accredited simply cannot practise the job.

 

You wouldn't get a gas engineer that's not corgi registered would you?

Thanks for chiming in.

 

The gas engineer comparison falls down when you realise that the consequences of a poor gas fitter can be your family dying of carbon monoxide poisoning or being blown up.

 

A bad tree surgeon will leave you with a badly pruned tree (that’ll probably grow back)

 

 

Edited September 5, 2019 by Mick Dempsey

[dumper]

5 minutes ago, BenR said:

Hello ladies and gents of Arbtalk.. I'm not going to claim to have read everything in this thread but what I will do is explain my involvement in the process. 

 

I was asked by the AA to attend said meeting to demonstrate SRT climbing techniques on one rope and two ropes, which I did and I had hoped that some sort of middle ground might have been found whereby people were advised to climb on two rope when reasonably practicable and otherwise continue as before. Alas the decision making process is nothing to do with me and we are now looking down the barrel of two ropes at all times. Whilst this isn't always practical I don't think anyone can argue that it will make us a safer industry... 

 

Trying to find some positive out of this: I can only hope that this new legislation helps to make the difference between professionals and people on the ladders with the poly pro rope and pole saw all the more clear. 

 

What would be great is if we could get outselves organised to the stage where as tree workers we need to be accredited to do the work and those that are not accredited simply cannot practise the job.

 

You wouldn't get a gas engineer that's not corgi registered would you?

Unfortunately you do however they are prosecuted by trading standards or the HSE

[BenR]

Just now, Mick Dempsey said:

Thanks for chiming in.

 

The gas engineer comparison falls down when you realise that the consequences of a poor gas fitter can be you family dying of carbon monoxide poisoning or being blown up.

 

A bad tree surgeon will leave you with a badly pruned tree (that’ll probably grow back)

 

 

or destroy your house when they fell a tree across it.. 

 

Regardless of what analogy you choose to use, the point still stands. We need something to separate the professionals from the cowboys.

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

4 minutes ago, dumper said:

Spell check got me I was referencing the HSE working at height specialist not yourself.

as a matter of interest was a chainsaw used during the demo ? How many branches were brought down did they free fall or were they rigged it could hardly be a reasonable demonstration of our working practises if this did not happen, 

My understanding is that as the principle issue related to SRT that's what was concentrated on. No chainsaw work, and certainly no rigging, was undertaken BUT I have forwarded the proposal for such, as raised by Tom and Scots Pine, with my colleague and project lead.

Cheers,

Paul

5 minutes ago, BenR said:

Hello ladies and gents of Arbtalk.. I'm not going to claim to have read everything in this thread but what I will do is explain my involvement in the process. 

 

I was asked by the AA to attend said meeting to demonstrate SRT climbing techniques on one rope and two ropes, which I did and I had hoped that some sort of middle ground might have been found whereby people were advised to climb on two rope when reasonably practicable and otherwise continue as before. Alas the decision making process is nothing to do with me and we are now looking down the barrel of two ropes at all times. Whilst this isn't always practical I don't think anyone can argue that it will make us a safer industry... 

 

Trying to find some positive out of this: I can only hope that this new legislation helps to make the difference between professionals and people on the ladders with the poly pro rope and pole saw all the more clear. 

 

What would be great is if we could get outselves organised to the stage where as tree workers we need to be accredited to do the work and those that are not accredited simply cannot practise the job.

 

You wouldn't get a gas engineer that's not corgi registered would you?

Hi Ben, "thank you" for posting and clarifying some things here...very useful.

Your comparison to gas engineers / CORGI is probably as stretch too far as that is dictated by legislation directly. The better aim would be an IRATA equivalent I believe but this would be principally down to clients to lead on so not much likelihood in domestic sector but certainly construction industry and Local Authority it should be achievable, I would hope (plus of course the insurance industry need to get on board.)

Cheers

Paul 

[BenR]

1 minute ago, dumper said:

Unfortunately you do however they are prosecuted by trading standards or the HSE

I'm sorry, I don't follow what you are trying to say...

[dumper]

1 minute ago, BenR said:

I'm sorry, I don't follow what you are trying to say...

Gas is not a good analogy as this is covered by legislation

[scotspine1]

10 minutes ago, BenR said:

Therefore, if conventional DDRT climbing is work positioning and only requires one rope then SRT should be classed as work positioning and only require one rope too. After all, what difference does it make whether the rope moves or not. It is still one rope or two no matter what the technique.

 

Cheers for the responses Ben.

 

That's why I asked about SRT demo, because if you guys set lines with throwbags at 40ft/50ft/60ft into big trees then proceeded to ascend using the wrench on a single line without a second backup rope, that's surely going trigger the HSE guy's when they see you climbing without a backup in a situation that looks very similar to IRATA/Industrial Rope Access techniques. Just wondered if it possibly spooked them? Hence the hard decision being made on using the, 'rope access' terminology instead of, 'work positioning'. 

 

[BenR]

1 minute ago, AA Teccie (Paul) said:

My understanding is that as the principle issue related to SRT that's what was concentrated on. No chainsaw work, and certainly no rigging, was undertaken BUT I have forwarded the proposal for such, as raised by Tom and Scots Pine, with my colleague and project lead.

Cheers,

Paul

Hi Ben, "thank you" for posting and clarifying some things here...very useful.

Your comparison to gas engineers / CORGI is probably as stretch too far as that is dictated by legislation directly. The better aim would be an IRATA equivalent I believe but this would be principally down to clients to lead on so not much likelihood in domestic sector but certainly construction industry and Local Authority it should be achievable, I would hope (plus of course the insurance industry need to get on board.)

Cheers

Paul 

Hey Paul,

 

Yes of course IRATA is a more obvious comparison but the point I am trying to make is that until we have a proper scheme that clearly identifies proper tree work professionals (and the public have a better understanding of this too) then it's pretty hard for the guys doing to job to go out and work on two ropes whilst competing with big garry who gets up on the ladders and hacks the shite out of the trees with a 181 back handle one handed..

 

Hope you're well amigo!