ID of small tree from terrible photo.

[Mark J]

12 hours ago, Beardie said:

Are those really compound leaves, or simple leaves born on a fresh shoot? Since they appear to be opposite, that could narrow it down.

Looking at it, they may indeed be simple leaves.

[daltontrees]

3 hours ago, Mark J said:

Looking at it, they may indeed be simple leaves.

I zoomed right in, there's no sign of axillary buds, and the 'twig' is much too uniform to be anything other than the petiole and midrib of a pinnate leaf. Plus, I can't think of one simple leaf species that has no leaf petiole. I'd say this is definitely a pinnate leaf form. Just don't know what species.

Edited August 15, 2019 by daltontrees

[Mick Dempsey]

6 hours ago, Stere said:

Elder has a very distinct smell some reckon bit like cats piss also wood is hollow with pith inside.

 

Anyway look like it needs lopping but your suppose to ask the Elder Mother first: ?

 

 

 

Elder Mother - Wikipedia

EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG

 

Various farmers have told me over the yrs that they   hate them growing in there hegdes as there basically seen as "evil"  etc didn't really understand why as no explanation was given,. maybe its some vague folklore memory past down....

 

Thought it was pretty odd...

 

One guy went round his land round chopping them all down... ?

 

 

 

If I came across one farmer who described Elder as ‘evil’ I’d consider him a nutter and move on.

 

If this became a recurring opinion amongst the farmers I met, I’d consider moving out of the Royston Vasey area entirely.

[Beardie]

7 hours ago, Stere said:

?

 

Various farmers have told me over the yrs that they   hate them growing in there hegdes as there basically seen as "evil"  etc didn't really understand why as no explanation was given,. maybe its some vague folklore memory past down....

 

Thought it was pretty odd...

 

One guy went round his land round chopping them all down... ?

 

 

 

This is going off-topic a bit, but I have seen elder in hedges and they seem to create a gap for themselves; other species to either side do not grow and interlace with them. It is as if there is an allelopathic effect going on. Then the elder grows a sparse network of brittle stems which are no good for retaining stock. So I don't blame landowners who try to get rid of them.

[Mick Dempsey]

16 minutes ago, Beardie said:

This is going off-topic a bit, but I have seen elder in hedges and they seem to create a gap for themselves; other species to either side do not grow and interlace with them. It is as if there is an allelopathic effect going on. Then the elder grows a sparse network of brittle stems which are no good for retaining stock. So I don't blame landowners who try to get rid of them.

Three elders getting along with other stuff in a hedge behind my place, not a real hedge I suppose, more of an abandonment.

 

Ime bramble will have a pretty good go at interlacing with it.

 

Interesting observations though, I’ll look out for what you describe.

Edited August 15, 2019 by Mick Dempsey

[Boo Who?]

Looks like a sad little walnut to me...
Serrations don’t really make huge sense, but perhaps not juglans regia. Looks to have been hacked back though, so larger leaves than normal, plus the distinctive smell does add up.

[Boo Who?]

Manchurian walnut perhaps...
Where is the tree...uk?

[Stere]

Seems dislike for elder is fairly widespread.....

 

https://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/78861/derelict-hedgerows.pdf

 

Quote

As Elder is such a vigorous plant it is advisable to cut out the Elder and treat the cut stumps with an appropriate chemical

 

https://ptes.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Hedgerow-guide-web-version.pdf

 

Quote

Elder is a contentious hedgerow shrub because although it provides an abundant food source through its white flowers and purple-black berries in summer, it is generally associated with gappy hedges in poor condition.

Also supposedly poisonous but sheep like eating it maybe why farmers remove it??

 

 

[Guest Gimlet]

7 hours ago, Stere said:

Seems dislike for elder is fairly widespread.....

 

https://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/78861/derelict-hedgerows.pdf

 

 

https://ptes.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Hedgerow-guide-web-version.pdf

 

Also supposedly poisonous but sheep like eating it maybe why farmers remove it??

 

 

 Most old wive's tales have some basis in fact.

It's true the berries are poisonous when green, but when ripe they're fantastically high in vitamin C and antioxidants and have been an effective remedy for treating colds and flu for centuries. Even the flowers contain medicinal properties and taste wonderful so it's perhaps not surprising the tree has a powerful folkloric reputation.

 

Round here old country folk always said it was unlucky to cut down an elder tree in your garden (maybe because you might need its properties one day); and it was said to be unlucky to bring elder wood into the house and that burning it would entice the Devil down the chimney.

 

Possibly that's because elder is a terrible firewood. It produces little heat and spits horrendously and can actually explode if it's green. In the days of open hearths spitting and bursting elder wood was probably responsible for causing house fires. A log that burns your house down is indeed a pretty unlucky log.

Using fresh elder flowers as a cut flower in a vase will fill your house with masses annoying insects as well.

 

Elder is a menace in hedgerows because it out competes every desirable species and like privet sucks all the nutrition out of the soil. It also produces runners which send up saplings at regular intervals, so one tree can develop into a string which will colonise a hedge and oust other species. An elder tree in a hedge will kill off it's immediate neighbours and leave gaps. And it can't be laid so elder must be removed or killed off or eventually your hedge will consist of nothing but elder in a sparse and gappy string. You can see this all the time where hedgerows have been neglected and annoyingly, elder is one of the few species that can withstand long term repeated mechanical flailing. So it's not surprising there are so many elder-only "ghost" hedges all over the country. 

 

I have a soft spot for the tree though. As a stand alone specimen where it doesn't interfere with anything else it's a useful species for insect pollinators and dead or alive, it hosts masses of insect life. It also discourages moles. They tend to avoid elder roots and are said to be repelled by green elder stems in their tunnels. Elder also is a composting catalyst that's almost as good as comfrey. Adding green elder growth to a heap enriches compost and speeds up the process. 

And as well as the dozens of wines, cordials, jellies, jams and deserts that can be made from the flowers and berries, the dried hollow wood is an excellent friction firelighting material.

 

A place for everything and everything in its place. 

I don't think the tree in the pic is an elder though...

Edited August 16, 2019 by Gimlet

[Mick Dempsey]

6 minutes ago, Gimlet said:

 Most old wive's tales have some basis in fact.

It's true the berries are poisonous when green, but when ripe they're fantastically high in vitamin C and antioxidants and have been an effective remedy for treating colds and flu for centuries. Even the flowers contain medicinal properties and taste wonderful so it's perhaps not surprising the tree has a powerful folkloric reputation.

 

Round here old country folk always said it was unlucky to cut one down and elder tree (possibly because in the right place it is such a useful species to human beings); and it was said to be unlucky to bring elder wood into the house and that burning it would entice the Devil down the chimney.

 

Possibly that's because elder is a terrible firewood. It produces little heat and spits horrendously and can actually explode if it's green.  In the days of open hearths spitting and bursting elder wood was probably responsible for causing house fires. A log that burns your house down is indeed a pretty unlucky log.

Using fresh elder flowers as a cut flower in a vase will fill your house with masses annoying insects as well.

 

Elder is a menace in hedgerows because it out competes every desirable species and like privet sucks all the nutrition out of the soil. It also sends out runners which send up saplings at regular intervals and so one tree can develop into a string which can colonise a hedge. So an elder tree in a hedge will eventually kill off it's immediate neighbours and leave gaps. And it can't be laid so elder must be removed or killed off or eventually your hedge will consist of nothing but elder is a sparse and gappy string. 

 

I have a soft spot for the tree though. As a stand alone specimen where it doesn't interfere with anything else it's a useful species for insect pollinators and dead or alive, it hosts masses of insect life. It also discourages moles. They tend to avoid elder roots and are said to be repelled by green elder stems in their tunnels. Elder also is a composting catalyst that's almost as good as comfrey. Adding green elder growth to a heap enriches compost and speeds up the process. 

And as well as the dozens of wines, cordials, jellies, jams and deserts that can be made from the flowers and berries the dried hollow wood is an excellent friction firelighting material.

 

A place for everything and everything in its place. 

I don't think the tree in the pic is an elder though...

Some interesting stuff, I’m pretty sure, that if moles could laugh, the idea that some green elder stems would repel them, would raise a chuckle.