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tree77

Confirmed TPO

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4 minutes ago, tree77 said:

Thanks Gary 

 

Will have to spoke with the tree officer,  seems odd that they sent me  copy of the TPO document but can't see a date it was confirmed

I may never have been!!

 

Previously LAs could confirm an order at any time rather than, as now, within six months, although the tree was not protected after six months from the date that i was originally served. I know of one case where the order was confirmed eight years after serving. And to make matters worse the LA twice refused consent to fell when the tree wasn't even protected!

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Hi Folks

 

When you serve a TPO it is signed and dated (sometimes sealed) in section 4 which I assume is what you have a copy of.  At this time it hasn't been confirmed hence it isn't signed as such.  That is your first copy of the order. 

 

You then have 28 days to object or make representations to the LPA.  Lets just say no one does.  Once the 28 days have passed the LPA can then decide to confirm without modification or subject to modification, or not to confirm.  Once they have made this decision they will then sign the next bit that says confirmed or decision not to confirm and send you an updated copy of the order. 

 

I think you probably have the original served order, the first one they send out.  Speak with the LPA and ask for evidence of confirmation.  The will then either send you the order with the confirmation bit signed (the second one mentioned above), or sometimes they have a thing called a notice of confirmation (this is rare) which is signed by legal and has the date of confirmation.  They still sign and date the original (as this is the legal bit) which will be stored in the fire proof room in legal. 

 

Cheers  

 

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36 minutes ago, Gary Prentice said:

I may never have been!!

 

Previously LAs could confirm an order at any time rather than, as now, within six months, although the tree was not protected after six months from the date that i was originally served. I know of one case where the order was confirmed eight years after serving. And to make matters worse the LA twice refused consent to fell when the tree wasn't even protected!

You could probably have gone for  judicial review on the one that was confirmed 8 years after serving as it could be argued that you had not consulted with those affected.  For example, if nearby properties had changed hands in that time. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Chris at eden said:

Hi Folks

 

When you serve a TPO it is signed and dated (sometimes sealed) in section 4 which I assume is what you have a copy of.  At this time it hasn't been confirmed hence it isn't signed as such.  That is your first copy of the order. 

 

You then have 28 days to object or make representations to the LPA.  Lets just say no one does.  Once the 28 days have passed the LPA can then decide to confirm without modification or subject to modification, or not to confirm.  Once they have made this decision they will then sign the next bit that says confirmed or decision not to confirm and send you an updated copy of the order. 

 

I think you probably have the original served order, the first one they send out.  Speak with the LPA and ask for evidence of confirmation.  The will then either send you the order with the confirmation bit signed (the second one mentioned above), or sometimes they have a thing called a notice of confirmation (this is rare) which is signed by legal and has the date of confirmation.  They still sign and date the original (as this is the legal bit) which will be stored in the fire proof room in legal. 

 

Cheers  

 

Ignore the bit about section 4, that is from the new model TPO.  Just noticed yours is on the old model but the process is still the same (sign and serve, then sign to confirm and re-serve), just the section numbers are different, and the new TPOs are much more compact. 

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Sorry for the late response. The body clock is playing catch up and I've been out of the office playing catch up with my surveying.

 

Not all model orders have a place to sign and date them as confirmed as the current one does. Some older ones just had space for the date made, and a signature. Once these Orders were confirmed the process was to write and inform those with an interest in the land. That was it, no need to endorse the Order.

 

This is causing problems now as PIN's are occasionally asking hor more proof of confirmation than just a badly worded Committee Minute. 

 

If you want proof it was confirmed ask for a copy of the land charge records, it should be on there.

 

Chris, you must JR an Order within 6 weeks of the date of confirmation, even if confirmed late. After that you can't challenge it in any legal proceedings whatsoever.

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Thanks for all your help, will speak with the LPA, it may be the case as Edwards said, it may be confirmed just not stated.

 

I know it's not been updated as the group TPO was under 1 owner, the area was sold about 10 years and now is over 3 owners.

The other strange thing is that I can find the work application history but 1 row of the trees have been pollarded, about 6 years ago but no application record, also have missing trees to.

 

Thanks again for all your help

 

Edited by tree77

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3 hours ago, EdwardC said:

Not all model orders have a place to sign and date them as confirmed as the current one does. Some older ones just had space for the date made, and a signature. Once these Orders were confirmed the process was to write and inform those with an interest in the land. That was it, no need to endorse the Order.

Yeah, I hadn't considered that when I responded.  The one from the OP is from 1999 which I didn't notice until later.  We have always sent out a notice of confirmation which is basically one side of A4 with the details then signed and dated.  Been done for years so we don't tend to get that issue with the PINS.   

3 hours ago, EdwardC said:

 

Chris, you must JR an Order within 6 weeks of the date of confirmation, even if confirmed late. After that you can't challenge it in any legal proceedings whatsoever.

Yes, that is what I meant, when it was confirmed.  I just assumed Gary involved when it was confirmed late. 

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1 hour ago, Chris at eden said:

We have always sent out a notice of confirmation which is basically one side of A4 with the details then signed and dated.  Been done for years so we don't tend to get that issue with the PINS. 

Always?

 

Some TPO's go back decades. The means of confirmation has changed, as has the model order.

 

Boundaries have changed, counties have come and gone, then come back again, amalgamations of districts into unitaries has been undertaken, offices have been moved, several times, there have been floods, and fires, and to save space files stripped and digitised. In short, stuff has been lost.

 

Go back a few years to a time when all you needed was the Committee to agree the TPO should be confirmed, The Committee resolves TPO XXXX be confirmed, and letters sent to those with an interest to achieve that. "Be confirmed" is an instruction to an official to do the do. Do you have copies of the letters of confirmation that were sent 50 years ago. Sometimes the Minister confirmed TPO's, do you have the letter from the Minister. As I said, a lot of stuff has been lost over the decades. 

 

A file audit of your TPO's is likely to reveal a can of worms.

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20 hours ago, Chris at eden said:

You could probably have gone for  judicial review on the one that was confirmed 8 years after serving as it could be argued that you had not consulted with those affected.  For example, if nearby properties had changed hands in that time. 

 

That was my argument at the time, but who can afford the High Courts?

 

I had evidence that a planning officer knew that the order hadn't been confirmed, in the form of a memo to legal at the time of the second application to fell asking that it be confirmed.

TBH it felt like a cover up. Even involving a local councillor and explaining how the planning office/department had acted went nowhere. Whatever happened, the LA were just going to serve a new order! The client's wife was ill and they gave up due to the stress of the situation.

 

 

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15 hours ago, EdwardC said:

Boundaries have changed, counties have come and gone, then come back again, amalgamations of districts into unitaries has been undertaken, offices have been moved, several times, there have been floods, and fires, and to save space files stripped and digitised. In short, stuff has been lost.

That LA has sure had some bad luck! :D

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