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Entrenched Ivy on Mature ASH removal

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53 minutes ago, Mick Dempsey said:

The metaphor you used about foxes and rabbits has zero relevance.

 

 

 

What you mean is not 'if we must', rather, if you must. Nobody else is comparing rabbits with trees.

 

It's just an example of doing something because it's always been done that way, but your actions have negative consequences you had not considered. You had not thought about the bigger picture and suffered a loss as a consequence.

 

It's very relevant.

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10 hours ago, tree-fancier123 said:

do you think its chemically impossible for ecoplugs to poison the host tree when drilled into 'veteran' ivy? 

No I don't think it's impossible, I do think it unlikely if the ecoplug is  used at the correct rate for the ivy stem and  well above the buttresses.

 

Without going into ecopolitics of whether the ivy should be removed I have seen innumerable efforts to remove heavy  ivy growth  from mature stems, mostly oaks and there is often significant damage done to the bark of the host tree. The ecoplug will  kill the ivy with no physical damage to the tree.

10 hours ago, tree-fancier123 said:

The phenomenon of glyphosate 'flashback' is more usual between two trees of the same species that have root connections, so stump killing a syc on the boundary could kill the one next door etc,

Yes I've heard this and always assumed it to be  trans-located through root grafts, I'd like to see a bit more of experiments on this.

 

BTW I made the mistake of allowing a handsome fan of ivy to grow up the wall of my 1862 built cottage for 20 years before I realised the damage it was doing to the mortar. I control the ivy now but the dead  tentacles are still a visible reminder of my mistake on the brickwork.

 

Similarly I abandoned a small greenhouse which became covered in ivy, I quite like ivy to look at with its berries etc., and migrated into my hawthorn hedge which dates back to before the house was built. Again after 20 years and my retirement I decided to reclaim the garden but the hedge was so heavily entwined with ivy I found it had killed two hawthorns by smothering them completely. I now have large bare areas in the hedge which I am trying to layer hawthorn from adjacent plants into plus I have planted a couple of hollies I found growing elsewhere..

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19 hours ago, openspaceman said:

I decided to reclaim the garden but the hedge was so heavily entwined with ivy I found it had killed two hawthorns by smothering them completely. I now have large bare areas in the hedge which I am trying to layer hawthorn from adjacent plants into

 

ivy in a deciduous hedge, or a mixed hedge is a nuisance, the evergreen part of a mixed hedge can cope, but the deciduous part gets shaded out by ivy, made worse by any top growth from the hawthorns etc getting removed with a hedgetrimmer.

Quite a few ivy hedges about now that were once something decent. 

2015037885_ivyhedge1.thumb.jpg.1502b565e65449c4a4a54805e44b1fbd.jpg

625472715_ivyhedge2.thumb.jpg.3048a67a2af11f3f50e0ea6db79a1149.jpg

 

Leaving the ivy on that ash tree is like seeing an elderly person being mugged in the street and crossing to the other side to avoid getting involved - the tree is being mugged of daylight. Just don't cut into the trunk

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On 11/01/2019 at 19:02, openspaceman said:

I found it had killed two hawthorns by smothering them completely

Do you know that to be a fact, or is it an assumption based on the premis that ivy is bad and you can see it, whereas you can't see what actually might have killed the thorn.

 

On 12/01/2019 at 15:08, tree-fancier123 said:

- the tree is being mugged of daylight

You are looking at a different tree to me. The leaves are found towards the outside of the crown which isn't covered in ivy so how is it 'mugging' it of light.

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1 minute ago, EdwardC said:

Do you know that to be a fact, or is it an assumption based on the premis that ivy is bad and you can see it, whereas you can't see what actually might have killed the thorn.

 

I cannot be certain of cause but can see the effect. The fact that the remainder of the hawthorn hedge is fine, even though areas have died out on individual plants where the ivy was, prior to being severed, and that the part where the two plants died was completely inundated with ivy...

 

As I said I never had the notion ivy was particularly bad, apart from making trees difficult to inspect and increasing the wintertime sail area, I valued it for the habitat it offered as well as its looks.

 

Cattle love it too.

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Edward, ivy is bad.

It would take a baby from a cot.

 

Of course it will infest shitbag trees, but it will also infest healthy ones given a chance.

Left unchecked there is no doubt it doesn’t help the tree at all.

There are plenty of trees I regularly strip away ivy growth above the crown break but leave on the stem.

As you say, it’s cracking habitat.

SRT for the win!

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19 minutes ago, EdwardC said:

You are looking at a different tree to me. The leaves are found towards the outside of the crown which isn't covered in ivy so how is it 'mugging' it of light.

Go and climb a few mature ash not covered in ivy (if you can still manage it) you will see that although most foliage is near the tips, there will be side branches with growth inside the crown too. It is these that are shaded by ivy and die off. And you know it full well! Just look at that big side branch in the photo - I've seen similar ivy clad limbs completely die and break off (alder). The limb can't be maintained just by a few leaves right at the end, the ivy has covered what would have been healthy shoots, as it keeps going in winter after abscission of the tree leaves.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

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On 11/01/2019 at 07:27, EdwardC said:

based on ignorance, (e.g ivy kills trees),

I have never seen a tree looking happy to be covered in Ivy.

Sure, Ivy is not parasitic, but it doesn't exactly sit benignly in the tree doing nothing. It grows ruthlessly, adds weight and wind drag, and deprives leaves within the crown of light.

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16 hours ago, maybelateron said:

I have never seen a tree looking happy to be covered in Ivy.

Sure, Ivy is not parasitic, but it doesn't exactly sit benignly in the tree doing nothing. It grows ruthlessly, adds weight and wind drag, and deprives leaves within the crown of light.

But the ivy is not the cause of the trees decline or why it looks 'unhappy'. Rather it is just taking advantage of the increased light levels. Managing the ivy to try and improve the health of the tree won't work because the underlying problem isn't being addressed.

 

It does cause shade issues,  but mostly to epicormics and other shoots from adventicious buds, not in the crown.

 

And it does add weight and increase wind loading which can result in failure.

 

It also has multiple benefits including many that we associate with ancient and veteran trees.

 

Manage it by all means, but make sure that what you are doing will address your management objectives. As I said earlier, removing the ivy will not address the underlying cause of the trees decline,  and it may cause more harm than good.

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Does this help?

 

Particularly this bit: 

When to consider controlling ivy

  • If the branch canopy becomes thin and allows sufficient light to enter, the ivy will develop into its arboreal form. Fraxinus (ash) and Larix (larch), are both trees with a naturally thin, open crown so may suffer heavy infestation. For this reason ivy on ash and larch trees is often controlled

 

Edited by Rob_the_Sparky
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