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PDizzle

Climbing without aerial rescue?

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Evening all, just wanted to get your thoughts and input around this. I've been working for a company recently (friend of a friend of a friend) and have done a few days for them, I found out today that the guy I've been working with doesn't have aerial rescue.

Yes I know, it's my responsibility to check before starting but I wanted to ask you all - where do you draw the line? When are you happy to climb with a trainee or unqualified groundy and when do you say nope, not putting my harness on untill I know someone with a half decent chance of getting me down alive is here.

Does anyone know the legal stuff surrounding working at height without aerial rescue or have a link to something?

 

Personally I'm undecided. I know that I *should* flat out refuse if its not there but if its a small tree or not particularly technical then I will override that, I'm just concerned that people are getting away with cutting corners (not providing training) and nothing is being done about it. It's the same old downside though, if I refuse to work for a legitimate safety reason, they arent going to pay the wages. Catch 22?

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Is it not up to you to decide no matter what the law might say?

I choose not to go up a tree at all and yes you are right, nobody pays me to be a climber as a result.

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hi  - i do safety so know a bit of the legal stuff

 

the legal stuff is defined by the HSW Act which requires your employer to consider your safety at all times

 

Under the HSW Act the Management of HS Regulations are given legal status. The MHS Regs explicitly state that all employers are to consider emergency procedures

 

Work at height causes so many injuries that it has its own Regulations under the HSW act. The Regs require that all work at height is properly planned and organised. This is a legal must. By not considering rescue it is perhaps questionable as to whether works are properly planned and organised.

 

The AA ICOP guide for work at height defines the best practice for applying the WAH regs to arboriculture. By following their guidance the law will have been complied with, although the guidance itself is not mandatory. It is located at

https://www.trees.org.uk/Trees.org.uk/files/aa/aaa89992-0539-4615-9af4-32b0582a13f4.pdf

 

On page 31 it states when using rope access and positioning for tree work the ICOP requires that consideration is given both to rescue and all potential rescue scenarios.

 

in my limited experience a lot of small firms presume that things will not go wrong for them as compliance with the regs just eats into profit and holiday funds and if they haven't had an incident don't always realise its hidden consequences.

 

would encourage you to assess whether you feel safe and make a decision based on that, as your employer most likely won't be at your hospital bedside or helping you learn to walk again...

 

 

 

 

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Not sure about Uk but in Ireland construction regs apply to Arb works.

any work at height (above or below ground) must have written risk assessment and have specific rescue plan for activity.

im sure  can be found on Hse website.

 

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If you have an accident in the tree that results in death or serious injury and there is no rescue climber on site, you can pretty much guarantee that two things will happen.

1. The HSE will come after the employer with the full weight of the law.

2. Any insurer will move heaven and earth to avoid paying out.

Like the previous post mentions, it’s going to be nigh on impossible for an employer to argue in court that the work has been properly planned without having a rescue climber on site.

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7 hours ago, TIMON said:

If you have an accident in the tree that results in death or serious injury and there is no rescue climber on site, you can pretty much guarantee that two things will happen.

1. The HSE will come after the employer with the full weight of the law.

2. Any insurer will move heaven and earth to avoid paying out.

Like the previous post mentions, it’s going to be nigh on impossible for an employer to argue in court that the work has been properly planned without having a rescue climber on site.

2nd'd!

 

Good post Timon,

Paul

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hi  - i do safety so know a bit of the legal stuff
 
the legal stuff is defined by the HSW Act which requires your employer to consider your safety at all times
 
Under the HSW Act the Management of HS Regulations are given legal status. The MHS Regs explicitly state that all employers are to consider emergency procedures
 
Work at height causes so many injuries that it has its own Regulations under the HSW act. The Regs require that all work at height is properly planned and organised. This is a legal must. By not considering rescue it is perhaps questionable as to whether works are properly planned and organised.
 
The AA ICOP guide for work at height defines the best practice for applying the WAH regs to arboriculture. By following their guidance the law will have been complied with, although the guidance itself is not mandatory. It is located at
https://www.trees.org.uk/Trees.org.uk/files/aa/aaa89992-0539-4615-9af4-32b0582a13f4.pdf
 
On page 31 it states when using rope access and positioning for tree work the ICOP requires that consideration is given both to rescue and all potential rescue scenarios.
 
in my limited experience a lot of small firms presume that things will not go wrong for them as compliance with the regs just eats into profit and holiday funds and if they haven't had an incident don't always realise its hidden consequences.
 
would encourage you to assess whether you feel safe and make a decision based on that, as your employer most likely won't be at your hospital bedside or helping you learn to walk again...
 
 
 
 
Wow, great post, thank you! I shall have a browse through the links at lunchtime today.
If you have an accident in the tree that results in death or serious injury and there is no rescue climber on site, you can pretty much guarantee that two things will happen.

1. The HSE will come after the employer with the full weight of the law.

2. Any insurer will move heaven and earth to avoid paying out.

Like the previous post mentions, it’s going to be nigh on impossible for an employer to argue in court that the work has been properly planned without having a rescue climber on site.

Thanks for the input. I'm guessing the main thing here that employers and banking on is the 'if' there's and accident. The chance of anyone finding out its happening without and accident is basically none?

I'm self employed freelance climber so perhaps the answer is to get employers to provide proof and or assurance that AR and first aid will be on site before agreeing to days. Has anyone done this? And what have your experiences been of the resulting conversations?

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When you climb you should have a rescue climber.

Period!

Real world here's my opinion.

Ive climbed without a rescue climber,ive also climbed with groundies who are ticketed aerial rescue climbers but would struggle to get up a tree in a rescue situation so are you any better off in that situation...no.

Its totally your call,best practice is to have 2 good climbers on any job incase the worst happens but in reality many firms just dont pay the wages of 2 good climbers on 1 job.

If you have an accident up a tree the best option is self rescue ie get your ass down out the tree but if your incapacitated then thats when your reliant on a 2nd climber.

Its your call. Ive done it myself so i cant judge you if you chose too do it but it is the law to have a "ticketed" rescue guy.

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So, your about the chop a tree down, you've done hundreds just like like it..  You consider the risks to  minimum..  you've never had a problem doin tree' like this before..  Something goes wrong and you end up injured.  

 

Havin considered the risks as the law demands you do, not to mention its something you do every time you climb a tree no matter the law..  Then how do you stand legally..  

 

You done what the law demands, not that it needs demanding mind..  I'd say any insurgence company that tries to stiff you will be the ones ending up in court if they attempt to flea fk you...

Edited by Vespasian
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