Definition of a hedge..... when does it become a row of trees and no longer a hedge

[swinny]

A hedge... 

 

When does a hedge become a row of tree's? 

 

I'm talking with regards to working in conservation area's etc.

 

We do work in one area where the council is a real pain! As far as i'm concerned if its a hedge we shouldn't need to give notification and wait 6-8 weeks for them to mess me and the clients about! If its small scale hedges etc I'm ok we just crack on.... Just when they start getting larger you start to wonder if there is a cross over hedge to row of tree's.

 

Just to point out that we are fine with regards to this with other councils and areas and don't have to notify.... Its just this one council in particular that are painful to deal with and would most likely ask for notification of intent of works!  

 

I also have a large row of tree's / hedge / screen  (conifers) within a con area, tucked away from road etc..... approx 60' tall require reducing down to approx 40' as far as i'm concerned I'd class this as a lapsed hedge.... T.O has said that the reducing of them would be fine..... Still I don't think we need to notify them.....

 

I haven't spoken to the T.O just customers. T.O doesn't seem to like to answer the phone to contractors!

 

Whats your thoughts? When is a hedge a hedge or when is it a row of tree's?

Edited June 4, 2018 by swinny

[daltontrees]

A hedge is a row of trees and/or shrubs. The trees within it are therefore trees, even if they have been managed as part of a hedge. When they lapse, they become even more like trees in a row. The Council has the ability to TPO trees if they are in a Conservation Area. The hedgeness of them is an arbitrary additional description of the group. What will matter to the Council is whether they come under the heading of "important for the amenity of the area" or whatever the exact wording is of the Planning Acts. I'd say that cutting a tree in a hedge in a CA is potentially an offence, escapable only if the trees are not what one would ordinarily describe as trees.

Following recent discussion on Arbtalk, if you advise the customer that they're not trees and that no CA notification is needed, and then you cut them, you may be guilty of the offence.

Irritating as a LPA stance on this might be, I'd advise that you proceed with caution. Call it humouring the LPA, call it precautionary, call it professionalism, but you ought either to get a confirmation that you don't have to notify, failing which notify.

If you're brave, you could skip this if you are satisfied the hedge comprises shrubs. But you described the 60' row as "a large row of tree's / hedge / screen  (conifers)". Are they trees, albeit in a hedge format? If so or if in doubt, notify. You may be able to get an approval to manage them over a period of time, with the LPA's written approval.

[swinny]

9 minutes ago, daltontrees said:

A hedge is a row of trees and/or shrubs. The trees within it are therefore trees, even if they have been managed as part of a hedge. When they lapse, they become even more like trees in a row. The Council has the ability to TPO trees if they are in a Conservation Area. The hedgeness of them is an arbitrary additional description of the group. What will matter to the Council is whether they come under the heading of "important for the amenity of the area" or whatever the exact wording is of the Planning Acts. I'd say that cutting a tree in a hedge in a CA is potentially an offence, escapable only if the trees are not what one would ordinarily describe as trees.

Following recent discussion on Arbtalk, if you advise the customer that they're not trees and that no CA notification is needed, and then you cut them, you may be guilty of the offence.

Irritating as a LPA stance on this might be, I'd advise that you proceed with caution. Call it humouring the LPA, call it precautionary, call it professionalism, but you ought either to get a confirmation that you don't have to notify, failing which notify.

If you're brave, you could skip this if you are satisfied the hedge comprises shrubs. But you described the 60' row as "a large row of tree's / hedge / screen  (conifers)". Are they trees, albeit in a hedge format? If so or if in doubt, notify. You may be able to get an approval to manage them over a period of time, with the LPA's written approval.

Appreciate that Jules.  

 

I will be sticking in the works to the "hedge" on the works schedule with the other tpo tree's there are to work on, was looking for clarification and thoughts of others.

 

It would be great if the T.O was approachable. We get on very well with all the other councils / T.O's we deal with and even do works for them.

[Gary Prentice]

The only real legal definition of a tree is something you’d ‘ordinarily call a tree’, so really useful. 

 

Ive notified at as low as 5m, to reduce to three, where it had lapsed and individuals were identifiable. 

 

It seems a grey area and if the local authority’s difficult I tend to err on the safe side. 

[MattyF]

Any woody plant over 6” at bh was covered in a conservation area I thought , over grown hedges would be covered was my impression and have always followed that unless trimming a large hedge.

[Gary Prentice]

Over 75 mm Matty. Strictly speaking  I think that even trimming a hedge requires notification, even just new growth, as it's 'lopping and topping'. 

 

I think that you can fell trees up to 100 mm dbh if the purpose is management of a group, although I might be getting mixed up with the felling licence regs there.

[MattyF]

Over 75 mm Matty. Strictly speaking  I think that even trimming a hedge requires notification, even just new growth, as it's 'lopping and topping'. 
 
I think that you can fell trees up to 100 mm dbh if the purpose is management of a group, although I might be getting mixed up with the felling licence regs there.

Trimming is exempt I’m sure as it’s ongoing maintenance..I’ve been told first hand by two Tree officers although that may have been please don’t waste our time with such trivial applications ! Topping isn’t though.

[Gary Prentice]

I'm not saying that you are wrong Matty (and some TOs are the last people to talk to about the finer points of legislation), but I don't know where in the T&CPA it says that maintenance is exempt. 

 

And what is topping? Taking ten feet of growth off, or a foot of new growth thats grown since last years cut? Where do you draw the line?

 

I hope that I'm not coming across as argumentative or pedantic, not my intent, but the interpretation of the legislation seems pretty diverse.

I've recently had to apply (TPO) to remove epicormics and basal shoots. The LA wouldn't allow an 'ongoing' consent in case the owner took liberties or did it wrong - even though I'd written a guide for the owner (how/where to prune/limitations to size of wound, what to cut with  - an idiots guide to epicormics) and included it in the application.

[Billhook]

You would hope that the word "reasonable" would appear in these cases.  Was the work done a reasonable piece of work in the eyes of a jury.

It is against the law to do 31 mph in a 30 mph limit but  it seems unreasonable to prosecute.  Generally people are let off doing 34 or 35.

[Gary Prentice]

34 minutes ago, Billhook said:

You would hope that the word "reasonable" would appear in these cases

Reasonable and the legal system 

 

It's an odd, even difficult, position. Normally we don't bother notifying for hedgecutting, but where is the cut off point. If the top hasn't been cut for 4-5 years and there is a couple of metres of regrowth, is it still a maintenance job or a reduction? It's a significant change in the hedges appearance. 

 

It's easier to stay on the right side of legislation when the legislation is clear. My approach is generally 'is it going to significantly change the appearance, if it is I might email a photo to the TO to ask. If he says don't bother notifying,  if planning complain I've gone through the motions. Unlike the OP,  the TO and I are on the same page of reasonable and necessary.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Gary Prentice