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On 25/05/2018 at 11:30, Woodworks said:

Yes no way would we want to be stumping up £450 a year  plus commission!

 

Do you think 20% is the right target? I cut open a 4 year oak billet yesterday  and it was still 20-22% inside which is was gutting. 

Yes to 20%. We kiln dry ours! 😂😂👍 can’t see how seasoned stuff can be consistently below this. So they will bias the market towards kiln dried which is good for me but defies logic really 

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I disagree, natural seasoning, properly set up and managed, with split timber, and with good airflow, can easily pull %ages down to 15ish, and once in a shed, no odds, both kiln dried and air seasoned will reach equilibrum with the relative humidity.

My take on the subject,  is that once one gets the sap out, it is relatively hard to wet firewood, or rather, remarkedly easy to re-dry it, if that makes any sense.

By the way, where does the average consumer/end user store their firewood?

and for how long?

Anyway bringing the firewood in to the house/beside the stove for at least 24 hrs before burning, makes a vast difference.

I only season limited amounts of Conifer though.

marcus

Edited by difflock
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I have history with this.   As a Hetas approved stove retailer I was one of the first to be asked about the scheme and spoke to Helen Bentley- Fox who was driving the scheme at length at one of the Arb shows.

 

At the time the max MC acceptable was 25%,  that is far far to high,  yes they have brought that down to 20% but ALL stove manufacturers require a maximum of 15%, some 16%.     So 20% is still for me far to high,  they are being corralled by CW whose KD moisture warranty was last time I looked 20% - 22%.

 

Chalgrave steve did not mention ( unless I missed it)  the requirement to also prove that you are using legally obtained timber, so felling licences, management plans etc all are to be audited on at least a yearly basis, more info here:

https://woodsure.co.uk/is-your-fuel-legal/

 

Last Sunday I was processing mixed hardwood,  some mixed Syc,Cherry, Ash and Pop in the main,  this had been split into billets a year ago and stacked under a hedge to dry.    The timber itself had been down 4 years,  the pop maybe 6.   Internal MC was well below 10% except on the Ash that had not been billeted.  It goes into vented bags stacked using a Manitou 10 wide,  8 deep and 3 high mostly under a dutch barn with one closed side only.   I have been burning the same stuff in the showroom today and it was going well, even using pop only I got perfectly acceptable heat output in the Morso 7940.   So given time and a half reasonable climate ( I am in the East Mids) then it is perfectly possible to get seasoned wood below 10% but being hydroscopic this will creep up externally by December.

 

Recently Hetas audited my installer,  they required the full tech specs of the flue liner we used on the jobs they chose,  we use Poujoulat for all our flue products,  arguably the finest flue manufacturer in the world with the specs well known and accepted,  yet Hetas still needed them.

 

My view is that the value for money I get from being a Hetas approved retailer is marginal,   the costs and admin burden involved with Woodsure for small business like ours ( and yours maybe !) make it a non flyer.   Still most people buy on cost, some are loyal but people looking for suppliers as new stove owners are usually price driven and there are lots of people out there selling at £100 a cube.

 

Put dry firewood into Google,  Woodsure do not appear on either P1 or P2, say no more.

 

A

 

 

Edited by Alycidon
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53 minutes ago, Alycidon said:

I have history with this.   As a Hetas approved stove retailer I was one of the first to be asked about the scheme and spoke to Helen Bentley- Fox who was driving the scheme at length at one of the Arb shows.

 

At the time the max MC acceptable was 25%,  that is far far to high,  yes they have brought that down to 20% but ALL stove manufacturers require a maximum of 15%, some 16%.     So 20% is still for me far to high,  they are being corralled by CW whose KD moisture warranty was last time I looked 20% - 22%.

 

Chalgrave steve did not mention ( unless I missed it)  the requirement to also prove that you are using legally obtained timber, so felling licences, management plans etc all are to be audited on at least a yearly basis, more info here:

https://woodsure.co.uk/is-your-fuel-legal/

 

Last Sunday I was processing mixed hardwood,  some mixed Syc,Cherry, Ash and Pop in the main,  this had been split into billets a year ago and stacked under a hedge to dry.    The timber itself had been down 4 years,  the pop maybe 6.   Internal MC was well below 10% except on the Ash that had not been billeted.  It goes into vented bags stacked using a Manitou 10 wide,  8 deep and 3 high mostly under a dutch barn with one closed side only.   I have been burning the same stuff in the showroom today and it was going well, even using pop only I got perfectly acceptable heat output in the Morso 7940.   So given time and a half reasonable climate ( I am in the East Mids) then it is perfectly possible to get seasoned wood below 10% but being hydroscopic this will creep up externally by December.

 

Recently Hetas audited my installer,  they required the full tech specs of the flue liner we used on the jobs they chose,  we use Poujoulat for all our flue products,  arguably the finest flue manufacturer in the world with the specs well known and accepted,  yet Hetas still needed them.

 

My view is that the value for money I get from being a Hetas approved retailer is marginal,   the costs and admin burden involved with Woodsure for small business like ours ( and yours maybe !) make it a non flyer.   Still most people buy on cost, some are loyal but people looking for suppliers as new stove owners are usually price driven and there are lots of people out there selling at £100 a cube.

 

Put dry firewood into Google,  Woodsure do not appear on either P1 or P2, say no more.

 

A

 

 

I have said before but I think you need to check your moisture meter. Totally impossible to obtain the percentage level you are talking about here. Wooden furniture in centrally heated homes is rarely below 10%.

 

The billets in the pictures below are oak and douglas fir. Both 3 or 4 years old on pallets with a rain cover

 

Current temp here is 17C and RH is 89% so by this table the driest a log could be is 19% https://www.woodworkerssource.com/shop/mois.html

 

You say you are east midlands so if we take a weather station up there https://www.wunderground.com/personal-weather-station/dashboard?ID=IENGLAND1344  which had an average temp of 16.4C and average humidity of 86% today you end up with wood at 18.4%. Below 20% just but we are in a fabulous spell of summer like weather not exactly representative of winter. If you are all for kilned dried only then yes bang on about 10-15% wood for fires but if want air dried to be on the market please dont encourage unachievable targets. 

 

IMG_20180523_200349.jpg

IMG_20180523_201055.jpg

Edited by Woodworks
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No offence Steve, but for me, burning wood, to dry wood for burning is as close to "defies logic" as it is possible to get...

 

And the proof of that - would you do it iffum you weren't being paid to do it?  

Screen Shot 2018-05-26 at 20.54.19.png

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45 minutes ago, Woodworks said:

I have said before but I think you need to check your moisture meter. Totally impossible to obtain the percentage level you are talking about here. Wooden furniture in centrally heated homes is rarely below 10%.

 

The billets in the pictures below are oak and douglas fir. Both 3 or 4 years old on pallets with a rain cover

 

Current temp here is 17C and RH is 89% so by this table the driest a log could be is 19% https://www.woodworkerssource.com/shop/mois.html

 

You say you are east midlands so if we take a weather station up there https://www.wunderground.com/personal-weather-station/dashboard?ID=IENGLAND1344  which had an average temp of 16.4C and average humidity of 86% today you end up with wood at 18.4%. Below 20% just but we are in a fabulous spell of summer like weather not exactly representative of winter. If you are all for kilned dried only then yes bang on about 10-15% wood for fires but if want air dried to be on the market please dont encourage unachievable targets. 

 

IMG_20180523_200349.jpg

IMG_20180523_201055.jpg

That's my thoughts to, we've kiln dried to less than 10 and stored undercover it consistently goes back up to 17%.

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44 minutes ago, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

No offence Steve, but for me, burning wood, to dry wood for burning is as close to "defies logic" as it is possible to get...

 

And the proof of that - would you do it iffum you weren't being paid to do it?  

Screen Shot 2018-05-26 at 20.54.19.png

It's been discussed in more detail in other threads but burning 100tons of softwood to dry 1000 of hardwood (rough figures) seems perfectly sensible to me. Which is why we do it.;)

 

Burning any wood involves burning off the moisture first. By kiln drying you gain efficiency in the end product and get it drier than natural methods and require far less storage, especially in wetter climates.

 

We claim rhi but it only covers drying for the winter period then we hit the teir 1 limit for payment after that we carry on because it still represents the best value. 

 

For the record I'm all for natural drying, it's just a matter of efficiency in different systems. 

 

 

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45 minutes ago, gdh said:

It's been discussed in more detail in other threads but burning 100tons of softwood to dry 1000 of hardwood (rough figures) seems perfectly sensible to me. Which is why we do it.;)

 

Burning any wood involves burning off the moisture first. By kiln drying you gain efficiency in the end product and get it drier than natural methods and require far less storage, especially in wetter climates.

 

We claim rhi but it only covers drying for the winter period then we hit the teir 1 limit for payment after that we carry on because it still represents the best value. 

 

For the record I'm all for natural drying, it's just a matter of efficiency in different systems. 

 

 

I appreciate, for volume, it can be represented as necessary. I’m only viewing from a self-sufficiency perspective and with the luxury of low volume, sufficient time and ample space for ‘natural’ processes.  I can understand the situation of trying to achieve product, on time and to spec, in bulk, but it just doesn’t “sit” right with me. I struggle to believe there was ever the intent, when RHI was conceived, for it to be used in this fashion - given my natural starting point of distrust and (occasionally mild, occasionally fierce) contempt for regulatory ineptitude, I can’t help but feel this is a perversion of the original intent. May be wrong of course...

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I appreciate, for volume, it can be represented as necessary. I’m only viewing from a self-sufficiency perspective and with the luxury of low volume, sufficient time and ample space for ‘natural’ processes.  I can understand the situation of trying to achieve product, on time and to spec, in bulk, but it just doesn’t “sit” right with me. I struggle to believe there was ever the intent, when RHI was conceived, for it to be used in this fashion - given my natural starting point of distrust and (occasionally mild, occasionally fierce) contempt for regulatory ineptitude, I can’t help but feel this is a perversion of the original intent. May be wrong of course...



I can understand your distrust Kev, it goes along similar lines of farm subsidy, landowners benefitting from handouts, of course there are always a few ordinary folk who benefit also!
Makes it easier to swallow.

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9 hours ago, Woodworks said:

I have said before but I think you need to check your moisture meter. Totally impossible to obtain the percentage level you are talking about here. Wooden furniture in centrally heated homes is rarely below 10%.

 

The billets in the pictures below are oak and douglas fir. Both 3 or 4 years old on pallets with a rain cover

 

Current temp here is 17C and RH is 89% so by this table the driest a log could be is 19% https://www.woodworkerssource.com/shop/mois.html

 

You say you are east midlands so if we take a weather station up there https://www.wunderground.com/personal-weather-station/dashboard?ID=IENGLAND1344  which had an average temp of 16.4C and average humidity of 86% today you end up with wood at 18.4%. Below 20% just but we are in a fabulous spell of summer like weather not exactly representative of winter. If you are all for kilned dried only then yes bang on about 10-15% wood for fires but if want air dried to be on the market please dont encourage unachievable targets. 

 

IMG_20180523_200349.jpg

IMG_20180523_201055.jpg

I agree. 

 

Our climate in Central Scotland is obviously damper, but I've a stack of 40mm sawn Elm that I use as a bellweather for equilibrium moisture content and it's presently sat just under 16%. It's been milled 2 years, it's in a barn with good airflow and it's barely rained in Scotland since the start of April. Below 15% just isn't possible in our climate at all, at any time of year unless you wood is stored in a suntrap where you are able to elevate the temperatures, or expose it to a lot of wind. 

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