BSL Fees. How does it affect you?

[slack ma girdle]

Totally agree your points about advertising vis-a-vis exposure on BSL webpage v cost for an advert and the potential for business uplift / new customers.

 

But it's not an advertising fee it's an admin fee which is used to instal and maintain another layer of bureaucracy, is likely to act as a disincentive to smaller / independent suppliers (opening the market to domination by larger outfits, price fixing and, ultimately, reduce uptake of RHI qualifying systems - not forgetting, the whole point is to reduce carbon output) and will likely be an inefficient, under resourced and poorly administered process manned by unaccountable, disinterested desk jockeys with little or no subject matter expertise leading, inevitably, to enduring inefficiency and fewer new qualifying installations.

 

Thanks for "reducing red tape" UK PLC.... you're a champ!

 

(The short version: yes, you're right, it's not a massive cost, but I still think it's pants!)

 

😳

 

I have not had any sales as a result of being BSL registered, or being listed, so i am leaving.

[ash_smith123]

Totally agree your points about advertising vis-a-vis exposure on BSL webpage v cost for an advert and the potential for business uplift / new customers.

 

But it's not an advertising fee it's an admin fee which is used to instal and maintain another layer of bureaucracy, is likely to act as a disincentive to smaller / independent suppliers (opening the market to domination by larger outfits, price fixing and, ultimately, reduce uptake of RHI qualifying systems - not forgetting, the whole point is to reduce carbon output) and will likely be an inefficient, under resourced and poorly administered process manned by unaccountable, disinterested desk jockeys with little or no subject matter expertise leading, inevitably, to enduring inefficiency and fewer new qualifying installations.

 

Thanks for "reducing red tape" UK PLC.... you're a champ!

 

(The short version: yes, you're right, it's not a massive cost, but I still think it's pants!)

 

[emoji15]

 

 

I agree with you but the RHI and BSL has been a "inefficient, under resourced and poorly administered process manned by unaccountable, disinterested desk jockeys with little or no subject matter expertise" project from the start [emoji23] very much like any government involved scheme.

 

I rang the RHI helpline the other day as my accountant has been putting 20% VAT on all my RHI payments for the last 3 years to see if the payments are VATable or not and I spoke to 3 different people and they didn't know. HMRC also didn't know, I got transferred to a "Renewables expert" who amazingly had never heard of RHI? and took 3 weeks to find out and get back to me. (They are NOT Vatable if you want to know)

 

I understand it's an admin fee but outsourcing the running of these schemes to under resourced and poorly administrated companies cost money that needs to be recouped. I know it's not an advertising fee but I look at it that way to make it slightly easier to swallow.

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

I agree with you but the RHI and BSL has been a "inefficient, under resourced and poorly administered process manned by unaccountable, disinterested desk jockeys with little or no subject matter expertise" project from the start [emoji23] very much like any government involved scheme. :thumbup1:

 

I rang the RHI helpline the other day as my accountant has been putting 20% VAT on all my RHI payments for the last 3 years to see if the payments are VATable or not and I spoke to 3 different people and they didn't know. HMRC also didn't know, I got transferred to a "Renewables expert" who amazingly had never heard of RHI? and took 3 weeks to find out and get back to me. (They are NOT Vatable if you want to know)

 

I understand it's an admin fee but outsourcing the running of these schemes to under resourced and poorly administrated companies cost money that needs to be recouped. I know it's not an advertising fee but I look at it that way to make it slightly easier to swallow.

 

I'm not entirely sure what you meant by that? He can't have been adding 20% to the payments you receive from RHI, did you mean he's been putting 20% VAT on your log sales? Shouldn't that be 5% if sold to the end user?

 

Raises a further question for me now yo've mentioned it though....

 

I've just paid the BSL subscription fee and note the fee is VATable at 20%. I'm now wondering if that should actually be 5% since it's associated with a renewable? I know it really is only pence in the grand scheme of things, but if we have to have a system, and we have to pay for it, I want to know that it's accurate and appropriate!

 

I'll email the Helpdesk since it's not worth the time, effort and cost of a phone call!

Edited January 7, 2017 by kevinjohnsonmbe

[ash_smith123]

Sorry I should have worded that better. She was putting the RHI payment down as a sale and for some reason putting it at 20% vat but as you said a firewood sale would go down as 5%. In really not sure why she had done it. I did tell her it was a government subsidy [emoji849]

 

I think the fee's would be 20% as it's probably classed as a service. They aren't selling you fuel they are selling a service regardless if it's to do with renewables so would probably be 20%

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

Sorry I should have worded that better. She was putting the RHI payment down as a sale and for some reason putting it at 20% vat but as you said a firewood sale would go down as 5%. In really not sure why she had done it. I did tell her it was a government subsidy [emoji849]

 

I think the fee's would be 20% as it's probably classed as a service. They aren't selling you fuel they are selling a service regardless if it's to do with renewables so would probably be 20%

 

Just thinking that, like the purchase of the RHI qualifying boiler, the installation costs, associated building works etc, products and services associated with RHI were 5% VAT.

 

A long shot perhaps, and also, perhaps, more effort than it's worth to ask the question.... But I just can't help myself now..... If all I get from it is the chance to challenge officialdom to provide an accurate, authoritative answer, that'll be enough to make me giggle!

[MonsterMonster]

If the 120 odd quid a year and 9p a m3 bothers you that much I suppose you probably shouldn't be on the BSL. In the grand scheme of things it's a tiny amount of money.

I see it as a form of advertising, How much do eBay charge for 7 days? how much do auto trader charge to put a car on for a week? £40+ Does anyone moan about that? I've put a 1/4 page advert for a month in a very local paper for £150 before and got nothing from it.

I've sold a few hundred cubic metres of BSL fuel over the last few years. I've had orders of 50+ cubic metres at a time at full price so if paying £120+ a year for me to advertise on a website that someone tomorrow could call up and order 50+ cubic metres, to me that seems pretty good value.

It's not the 9p/tonne nor the annual membership fee, what is a bother is the changing of the goal posts, red tape and the application fees. I have to be on the BSL as a producer/trader even though I do not trade. I only buy in relatively small volumes of logs and am now being forced to increase the cost of heating my house by at least 25% to over 100%+. It's a shafting experience. BSL does not guarantee quality of fuel but rather sustainability. Talking with other BSL members they weren't too impressed with the BSL before fees came in to effect.

 

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[briquette_seller]

It's not the 9p/tonne nor the annual membership fee, what is a bother is the changing of the goal posts, red tape and the application fees. I have to be on the BSL as a producer/trader even though I do not trade. I only buy in relatively small volumes of logs and am now being forced to increase the cost of heating my house by at least 25% to over 100%+. It's a shafting experience. BSL does not guarantee quality of fuel but rather sustainability. Talking with other BSL members they weren't too impressed with the BSL before fees came in to effect.

 

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In what way is this guaranteed?

[MonsterMonster]

In what way is this guaranteed?

https://biomass-suppliers-list.service.gov.uk/about

 

Sustainability section.

 

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Edited January 8, 2017 by MonsterMonster

[Chalgravesteve]

If I'm right the only fuel you should have registered under BSL is the seasoned logs that you burn in your RHI boiler and the kiln dried stuff has nothing to do with BSL assuming that it was not your intention to sell BSL kiln dried. When you apply for a fuel to be authorised under BSL they ask for your expected production volume for the next 12 months. I suppose the BSL will compare your declared future production with the quarterly sales volume and if they don't tally they might ask questions or audit.

 

It all seems utter red tape crap.

 

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I'm happy to supply my kiln dried logs as a BSL accredited product. I expected there to be a greater demand for it, but, at least where I am, there appears to be negligible requirement. I'm not fussed about the fees they represent a very small %age of overhead costs as effectively I'm paying £120 per annum to advertise my products on the BSL.

[Chalgravesteve]

Sorry I should have worded that better. She was putting the RHI payment down as a sale and for some reason putting it at 20% vat but as you said a firewood sale would go down as 5%. In really not sure why she had done it. I did tell her it was a government subsidy [emoji849]

 

I think the fee's would be 20% as it's probably classed as a service. They aren't selling you fuel they are selling a service regardless if it's to do with renewables so would probably be 20%

 

Income received from RHI subsidy is "outside the scope" of VAT and therefore the VAT element is zero.

 

So, if you receive say £1,000 from RHI subsidy, it is receipts of £1,000 with No VAT. If she has been accounting for it as a gross income of £1,000 and declaring that it is effectively £833.34 + 20% VAT (£166.66) then you have been overpaying your VAT and you can reclaim that.